Control - Remote 2

Posted by: Tog on 26 February 2011

I've spent an evening playing with Remote 2 and come to some uncomfortable conclusions whilst having a whale of a time listening to music.

It is an absolutely superb bit of software. Quick, intuitive and comprehensive - Internet radio - no fuss cover art - ITunes DJ - and playlists. Listening to ITunes DJ and want to interrupt with a song - no problem....want to search for an artist ... Oh look it works and I timed it less than a second.

Seriously guys ... This app is free .... N-stream ...err it says it is still loading ... You're fired

Tog

Posted on: 26 February 2011 by Jon Myles

Yes, indeed. Doesn't work very well unless you're streaming from a Mac, though.

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Aleg

This app just controls " iTunes and Apple TV".

Things I can't be bothered with.

Nice but nothing serious

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Jon Myles

Originally Posted by AllenB:

I reckon the responders are missing the point of the OP. If Naim could get even close to the functionality of Remote 2, many of us would be ecstatic.

Indeed, and if Apple could even get close to the sound quality of Naim......
Need I say more?

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

Correct the issue is control - but whilst we are on the subject Naim don't have a monopoly on SQ.

There is no reason why output from a Mac with Naim amplification can't equal that of a Naim streamer.

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

I have tried to love n-stream honest I have but like Winston Smith I have notion that it just isn't very good and far too slow. Even Sonos users laugh at how much I paid for it - I've spent hours fiddling with jpg files to get it to show the right covert art - remote just gets on with it.

Time to go to Naim anonymous - and stop living in denial.

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

Mac Mini Server anyone?

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Dustysox

Gents,

I had a "play" with the ipad controlling NDX on Friday, and found the software to very limiting. I currently use Ipeng both on my phone and ipad and found it to be far superior.

Yes, Naim will obviously improve and fine tune it, but at the initial cost of it you would both expect it to be "flying" and at the show would of been an ideal platform to show it off in conjunction with the NDX.

It left me "not"wanting.

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

Ipeng is a great Iphone/Ipad Squeezebox remote - often used with Vortexbox which has Squeezecentre installed and can even pretend to be a Squeezebox - not a UPnP control point.

Still far better than N-stream

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

@dustysox

I'm wondering if the n-stream app will ever be as fast or intuitive as Remote 2 given the complexity of what it is trying to do - control the NDX and the UPnP stream or whether there are inherent limitations to UPnP that will make it very difficult.

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Jon Myles

Originally Posted by AllenB:

IMO, Naim have missed a great opportunity to release the NDX with an iPad app that really starts to compete.

Yep - and missed a great opportunity to release an app that works with Android as well? Oh, and Blackberry for their upcoming tablet.
I use Apple exclusively - but I don't expect Naim to release an app that controls a Mac interface. Sorry.
And nStream is only £22. It's not a fortune. If you don't like it don't buy it.
Works fine for me.

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by AllenB:

more seem to be using Linn DS with Naim amplification, and they get a bloody fantastic control system through their iPads. What do we get? 2x n-Stream, no in-app creation of playlists or even a random DJ thing

They don't get ANY iOS application from Linn Products–it's all third-party efforts, which do break from time to time as system software changes. Support is provided through a third party developer, not the manufacturer itself–this is a very important commercial distinction that seems to have been lost in the fear, uncertainty and doubt that plagues this forum on a regular basis.

Give the guys in Naim R&D some credit–they do listen to your constructive suggestions and feature requests, and the apps help to sell more products. Clearly, the version of the app you've seen is a beta, but is developed in-house against a stress-test regimen of functionality that measures the responsiveness of the application to updates from the UPnP server, for example (and not just Naim's own, mind you). All of the other features will follow.

There is no perfect app–even Apple is working on the next generation of control points for AirPlay / iTunes, and there have been plenty of crappy streaming apps over the years which developed into decent, usable control points after significant amounts of effort, and constructive user suggestions / feature requests.

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

Originally Posted by Jon Myles:

Originally Posted by AllenB:

IMO, Naim have missed a great opportunity to release the NDX with an iPad app that really starts to compete.

I don't think that Apple would like anyone messing with their interface - yes N-stream works but it is hardly swift or intuitive. Since Naim have gone down the iOS route comparisons will be drawn with Remote 2 which is probably unfair - but that's life.

Listening to itunes on DJ sampling from a Terabyte of ripped music.

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by lhau

Well yes I think the nstream is still a weak link. It often chokes when loading the library, I can see the small screen on the uniti have alreay displayed the list of items, but the bloody app just doesnt display it and and up lost connection. It would just give up, give you a blank Nothing is playing screen. If you click library again, it won't even retry to get the connection. Up to this point, I sometimes need to go pick up the remote, switch to other inputs (because the app won't do it!) and then switch back to upnp. At this point the app can finally reacquire control... I wonder if anyone have this problem? This fixed, a playlist and some-kind of Dj function would be enough for me to forget anything about songbook etc. Unlike tog, I don't want to have some dedicated airport or Mac toslink into uniti. No 1 I don't want and extra box No 2 I don't like spdif, uniti is not a ndac afterall! And most importantly, I still think let naim handle the bloody sound file should be better than any other non-audio minded boxes to do so...

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

I have a Land Rover but I didn't buy the monogrammed jumper, folding spade or LR Fridge. Simply because some things that a company makes doesn't mean you have to devote yourself heart and soul.

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by lhau

I am not so devoting. For one, I dont use another Mac because I already have a nas. Why would I need to toss out money on another Mac just for listening. Secondly, it is still arguably why a noisybox of a Mac would be better fitted to process the digital file to bitstream especially when you know people are paying thousands of pounds just to make sure the bitstream is time perfect...... It seems a case of doing more for less to me......

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

Remote was not even a serious project at Apple - the original version was developed by a team of 1 - the software languished unappreciated as he was pulled off to another development team - but Apple devoted more resources after the introduction of the ipad where they saw potential for the app.

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

I believe the issues on speed lie with UPnP - this is where Apple have an advantage with DAAP, but it would be useful to hear from Phil or someone at Naim -surely they can't be happy with the current state of play ...

Tog

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by Tog

That is worrying but even worse is the speed of the updates.

In the traditional world of British Hifi things evolve slowly but in the world of computing if you rest on your laurels for 20 minutes you are in a museum, as an exhibit.

Take Vortexbox for example - yes I know it's not £2000 quids worth of Unitiserve and because it's free it must be rubbish. Well it isn't, it works well and is being updated daily .... With three major releases since November and important advances from v1.6 to 1.8. I can hit update and five minutes later it's ready to reboot. Post a problem and Andrew gets it fixed within weeks. The server side of the equation is looking good but my system is being strangled once it reaches n-stream. Yes a free server project led by one man is being held up by £22 of beta grade Naim app.

Naim's Uniti/HDX/NDX are being sold on the back of the n-sream/serve apps yet those apps are still beta grade at best. Add the usual firmware upgrade dealer only fandango that occurs every time Naim need to add functionality and you have all the makings of a dinosaur approach to modern tech.

People don't upgrade their computers by taking them back to the dealers and Naim need to move on. First class engineering with great new products is lovely but Naim's new customers expect better from their software.

Let's hope the quality of the forum software isn't an omen. This one is dreadful. Try editing a post on an iPad without multiple line breaks...

Tog

(

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by lhau

So out of interest. Noone had similar problem as mine? Nstream was not only slow but totally disconnected and wouldn't reconnect without me switching source out of upnp on the uniti using the remote......

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by DavidDever

n-Stream cannot polish a turd–if the network is painfully slow or the UPnP server under-powered to provide artwork and listings from browse trees on a rapid enough basis, can one really expect the system to work well?

Caching is not always a solution (if the UPnP server does not update links within the browse tree), especially if the server re-indexes its contents since the last re-fresh. There have been plenty of posts here and on other forums where one selects a file for playback, only to have another, unrelated selection play (or none at all).

In the case of iTunes, SQLite is used to manage the music locations and does not change indices (as it utilizes OS X system services)–therefore, Remote 2 will always point to a file at a specific location without having to re-lookup the file reference. In this instance, caching will help when browsing the iTunes Library from the app.

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by Tog:

Naim's Uniti/HDX/NDX are being sold on the back of the n-sream/serve apps yet those apps are still beta grade at best. Add the usual firmware upgrade dealer only fandango that occurs every time Naim need to add functionality and you have all the makings of a dinosaur approach to modern tech.

Tog

(

...except that the UnitiServe and HDX can be controlled from a wide variety of devices (anything with a Flash-capable browser, Crestron, AMX, the supplied IR remote, HDX front touchpanel), which makes this a complete load of rubbish. All of the devices (except the IR remote) access the server at the same IP mezzanine level (a system service wryly named "Sophia").

The Uniti family of products can be controlled from PlugPlayer or any other UPnP control point–no walled garden for UPnP streaming.

As for British computing (snicker)–it also evolves at a glacial pace–and about the only thing to escape orbit, so to speak, has been ARM plc. We may very well be on iPad v2 or v3 before anybody in Britain comes up with an attempt at a competitor.

Your remark regarding the software updates for Uniti fails to take into account that the control and streaming software, though both largely run on ARM-based cores, utilize two completely separate OSes, each core of which requires its own update. Not every end user is equipped to issue real-time RS-232 updates over a DB-9 connection, hence the requirement for a dealer visit (for one of the two cores).

A product such as the HDX has three separate processors (front panel, main CPU, hypervisor), and requires a managed update from CD-R.

All of these updates are then meted against the codebase for control and playback testing–so you've got Naim developing software for six codebases (3 for HDX and 3 for NDX, including DSP) and two iOS control apps–plus everything else.

One last thought, though–if the app(s) was/were perfect, how many of you would still complain that product X / Y / Z was too expensive?

Posted on: 28 February 2011 by Tog

As usual David - one gets more technical information from you than Naim - for which many thanks.

My network is fine and UPnP server very nimble on Vortexbox / Asset- which makes n-stream just about tolerable but completely lacking in control point functionality and slower than Plugplayer.

None of the UPnP control points stack up against Remote 2 and whatever the technical reasons - most customers are only interested in how well the control point works. UnitiServe/HDX do indeed work from flash based browsers (bit 2009) but that is hardly a control point - VB works from Ipad - or anything with a browser / flash not required. Real time RS-232 not required for updates.

Quite frankly whilst I appreciate the engineering expertise of Naim (why I buy their products in the first place) and the fact all those I've come into contact on this forum are clearly lovely people - modern software engineering should not require returning the equipment to the dealer. Re - capping your amp yes - software update no as it upsets the customers who whilst not brilliant technicians do stump up the cash for the product.

The complexities of the Naim platform OS are wonderfull but (as you point out) British (Computing/Engineering) Industry is litered with the corpses of products that were wonderfully built, fantastically complex and forgot that real people used them. By the way I wouldn't laugh at the remains of our computing industry - without it your Silicon Valley would be growing vines and Steve Jobs would be running a new age health farm in Boise. Anyway its our job to poke fun at the remains of our manufacturing industry.

The Uniti range was sold (in Europe anyway) on the back of a fantastic duo of iOS apps - and the ability to stream from your computer. The alternatives are not pretty and not supported - Songbird Naim anyone.

Sophia is a lovely name.

I have no idea what an IP mezzanine level is - can I "reverse the polarity" on my Uniti or will it need to return to the dealer?

Tog

Posted on: 28 February 2011 by 0rangutan

I think that, of all of the questions or concerns regarding n-Stream, performance is the one that most bothers me. It is just that little bit too sluggish to make using it a pleasant experience. If it was just a little faster, everything else would pale away.

My UPNP server and network speed are not at fault.
Plug Player is faster.
Apple Remote is faster.

Tog is right here - n-Stream really needs some code optmisation or caching. If the other apps can do it, there is no reason that Naim can't.

Oh, and it needs to persist across multi-tasking. This would also help the speed and pleasure of the user experience. This feature has been available for ages and is not difficult to implement. Every time n-Stream gets updated I keep hoping it will have been added, only to see the app loading page yet again.

Posted on: 28 February 2011 by Jon Myles

Originally Posted by Tog

People don't upgrade their computers by taking them back to the dealers and Naim need to move on. First class engineering with great new products is lovely but Naim's new customers expect better from their software.

Tog

(

Tog,

As one of Naim's new customers myself can you stop assuming you're speaking for me?
I never upgrade my computers by taking them back to the dealer - they last me until they give up the ghost and then I buy a new one.
I don't buy hi-fi on the same criteria. My interest with purchasing Naim was based on its engineering, back-up service and durability allied to (obviously) the sound quality which I liked.
The software control aspect via an iPhone, iPad and n-stream was an added bonus which wasn't available at the time I bought my products. When it became available I decided to pay the £22 to buy. My decision - I'm happy with it.
As I've said before here, I buy Apple for their software, Naim for their hardware (ie: Music replay.)
And if you think Naim's software should be able to match Apple's, then I'm afraid you don't understand economics, Apple's way of doing things contractually or global protocols. Or even the way both companies work.
Would you expect your car's software to be updated over the internet? Although it's technically feasible.

Mind you, I didn't buy the RR spade either!!!

Posted on: 28 February 2011 by Tog

John I will stop talking for you - you are far too eloquent.

I would argue that my general point is still valid - that software development by its very nature is very different to hardware electronics. Both the time pressures of the development cycle and the expectations of many customers used to rapid advances.

Apple's way of doing things is not just about financial clout but about understanding that details,ergonomics and software usability are really important. They found out the hard way that reinventing the wheel (Copeland - the failed OS before OSX/Nextstep) was pointless and their current success is built upon a Darwin kernel and Intel/Arm processors. Something like Remote is not the result of throwing money at a problem but about understanding that software is important. Despite what you might think Apple is predominantly a software company that really cares about its hardware - not a hardware company that needs good software.

You can get good smartphones from other vendors - what they don't have is iOS4.

You can get great hifi streaming hardware from companies other than Naim - the company that wins will be the one that gets the software right. Naim have a window but not for ever.

On another thread after considerable prompting Phil got the marketing guys to finally confirm a possible March date for an ipad N-stream app. We shouldn't have to badger poor Phil for that kind of info.

Tog