Control - Remote 2
Posted by: Tog on 26 February 2011
I've spent an evening playing with Remote 2 and come to some uncomfortable conclusions whilst having a whale of a time listening to music.
It is an absolutely superb bit of software. Quick, intuitive and comprehensive - Internet radio - no fuss cover art - ITunes DJ - and playlists. Listening to ITunes DJ and want to interrupt with a song - no problem....want to search for an artist ... Oh look it works and I timed it less than a second.
Seriously guys ... This app is free .... N-stream ...err it says it is still loading ... You're fired
Tog
It is an absolutely superb bit of software. Quick, intuitive and comprehensive - Internet radio - no fuss cover art - ITunes DJ - and playlists. Listening to ITunes DJ and want to interrupt with a song - no problem....want to search for an artist ... Oh look it works and I timed it less than a second.
Seriously guys ... This app is free .... N-stream ...err it says it is still loading ... You're fired
Tog
Posted on: 28 February 2011 by Jon Myles
Tog,
Yes, I'd agree with many of your points there.
Especially regarding ergonomics and software usability.
And I'd say most consumers should never even consider what software they're using - just pure usability.
One of the points I was trying to make (although rather clumsily) was Naim manufactures hardware and bolts software on top.
Apple succeeds because it produces both the hardware and software to work as one. Hence the seamless inetergration between iPad/iPhone/Mac etc. (Although it wasn't happening until Steve Jobs returned.)
Microsoft's software is a bundle of annoyance because of that lack of integration.
I do hope Naim can get it right. Just trying to say let's at least give them some time.
Yes, I'd agree with many of your points there.
Especially regarding ergonomics and software usability.
And I'd say most consumers should never even consider what software they're using - just pure usability.
One of the points I was trying to make (although rather clumsily) was Naim manufactures hardware and bolts software on top.
Apple succeeds because it produces both the hardware and software to work as one. Hence the seamless inetergration between iPad/iPhone/Mac etc. (Although it wasn't happening until Steve Jobs returned.)
Microsoft's software is a bundle of annoyance because of that lack of integration.
I do hope Naim can get it right. Just trying to say let's at least give them some time.
Posted on: 28 February 2011 by james n
Hmmm .... This is disappointing to read. I'm keen to hear the NDX and I'm hoping it will better the Akurate. Usability has to be on par with the Linn solutions to make it a serious contender for me and from what i've read this doesn't yet seem to be the case.
James
James
Posted on: 28 February 2011 by DavidDever
I'd say the usability equals or exceeds the Linn solutions - don't believe the hype. Visit a retailer and get a demo.
Posted on: 28 February 2011 by Alamanka
Aside from the general considerations, here are some requests to Naim.
- Would like Naim control points on non Apple platform that I already own: Windows and Android
- Would like to be able to try and demo the control software for a limited period of time before purchasing it.
- Would like a current playlist in the control application
Separately, regarding firmware update:
- Would like to have officially the choice to either update firmwares myself or through dealer/support.
Thanks.
- Would like Naim control points on non Apple platform that I already own: Windows and Android
- Would like to be able to try and demo the control software for a limited period of time before purchasing it.
- Would like a current playlist in the control application
Separately, regarding firmware update:
- Would like to have officially the choice to either update firmwares myself or through dealer/support.
Thanks.
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by TJ
Hi All,
This is an interesting thread!
Thanks for all the feedback both positive and negative, it all helps.
We had a really great Bristol show with lots of positive feedback about both iPad apps. Thanks to all of you that came to say hello.
n-Stream:
One of the recurrent complaints seems to be coverart support on n-Stream. Coverart is only supported on the UPnP Source and is totally reliant on the UPnP server dishing up images for the app to display! So please double check the UPnP server you are using and if you are using your iTunes library as a music source remember that iTunes has a nasty habit of squirrelling away the cover images in places where the UPnP server is unlikely to ever find them.
Yes, there are tons of features we would love to add, some our within the realms of the Uniti system others aren't, yet.
Faster connection speed after the iPhone sleeps, yes I'd love to see that and we are looking into it. Faster UPnP browsing and concept of current playlist concept, ditto.
The new features coming in the iPad app are principally a better browsing experience as there is much more screen real estate, also we have taken the opportunity to do a tiled coverart view as well as a list view.
Regarding the connection issues with n-Stream some people have experienced, please contact us or your dealer if things are not working as you expect, we several great support staff here who have experience in coaxing truculent routers into playing nicely and who can advise on any adjustments to your network setup that might help matters.
n-Serve:
This iPad app really is coming along nicely, as well as adding coverart support and search feature we have snuck a couple more goodies in. The app will work in offline mode which effectively means that it caches all the album and artist data locally, so if you find yourself in a record shop trying to remember if you already have a copy of that special edition Status Quo boxset you can refer to the n-Serve app on your iPhone/iPad to search your entire music collection. We have also added nice click-throughs on the extended metadata for each album and track, so you can say, view the info for a track, click on the composer to see all the albums by the composer then add them to the current playlist, then select a performer etc etc. You won't be seeing playlist and metadata editing in the first iPad release but this is something we want to press on with soon after.
Regarding both apps, we do keep an eye of all your feedback but now this thread is well underway how about posting your wishlists? Would be handy to have it all in one place!
Now back to work...
Cheers
Tom
Naim R&D
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Jon Myles
Tom Nice to hear.
I'll start the ball rolling:
N-stream: Full fuctionality for CD replay. As in programme tracks, set repeats. After that you've covered (sleep delay)
IPad: I'll wait to see. But yes, optimise screen use.
Oh, and finally, Blackberry app? (But that's my wife's request. And it's her fault that's the phone work hand her!)
I'll start the ball rolling:
N-stream: Full fuctionality for CD replay. As in programme tracks, set repeats. After that you've covered (sleep delay)
IPad: I'll wait to see. But yes, optimise screen use.
Oh, and finally, Blackberry app? (But that's my wife's request. And it's her fault that's the phone work hand her!)
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Tog
Thanks for the communication Tom - always much better to hear it straight from the horses mouth
For me:
N-stream - in-app caching of cover art, better attention to design and app animation (Remote 2 - cover art on-screen visual feedback - cover art revolves to revel track data - covers bounce when they collide - sounds frivolous but has areal impact in terms of user interaction)
Intelligent - playlist with the option to interrupt / add song at any point
N-Serve sounds good but metadata editing needs to come sooner rather than later.
All in all promising but I note the sound of caution Tom - attention to detail will be paramount and i sense a desire to manage expectations. You are up against strong competition on the ipad and all that screen real estate will only magnify any design blunders.
Tog
For me:
N-stream - in-app caching of cover art, better attention to design and app animation (Remote 2 - cover art on-screen visual feedback - cover art revolves to revel track data - covers bounce when they collide - sounds frivolous but has areal impact in terms of user interaction)
Intelligent - playlist with the option to interrupt / add song at any point
N-Serve sounds good but metadata editing needs to come sooner rather than later.
All in all promising but I note the sound of caution Tom - attention to detail will be paramount and i sense a desire to manage expectations. You are up against strong competition on the ipad and all that screen real estate will only magnify any design blunders.
Tog
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Tog
Not at all - great idea
Tog
Tog
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by alainbil
Correct me if I am wrong: with the Remote.app you can only play the music (namely Films, Music, Podcast, or TV show) that is already inside the ITunes Library of the host computer, you cannot for example update a podcast; or add a new podcast.
Alain
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Harry
Thank you very much for the post Tom. I can't wait to meet it.
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by 0rangutan
Tom, most of my requests are already in the thread, but three more quick ones:
1. Make them universal apps - please don't charge a second time for these. If you can't make them universal to do this, use the App Store system for redemption codes to enable existing users to have both iPhone and iPad versions of the apps without paying twice.
2. Please update the icon to Retina display resolution. Trivial I know, but it all affects user perception and experience. n-Stream is pretty much the only low res (ie. blurry) icon left on my phone!
3. Is there any chance that you could implement n-Stream as a web interface running from the Uniti* device? It would open up remote control to laptops, the Android crowd and many many more devices.
Thanks
1. Make them universal apps - please don't charge a second time for these. If you can't make them universal to do this, use the App Store system for redemption codes to enable existing users to have both iPhone and iPad versions of the apps without paying twice.
2. Please update the icon to Retina display resolution. Trivial I know, but it all affects user perception and experience. n-Stream is pretty much the only low res (ie. blurry) icon left on my phone!
3. Is there any chance that you could implement n-Stream as a web interface running from the Uniti* device? It would open up remote control to laptops, the Android crowd and many many more devices.
Thanks
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Alamanka
The bad news from the TJ post is that R&D is exclusively working on enhancing and fixing the existing app.
Good bye to the dream of Naim control application running on a different platform than Apple (browser, Android and Windows).
On the other hand, the good news is: Asset Control works really well after the 3.0 firmware update. , It is not gapless, and does not allow to control the volume or sources other than UPnP, but: a) it is free, b) it runs on a wireless laptop. Maybe that will do for the kids.
Good bye to the dream of Naim control application running on a different platform than Apple (browser, Android and Windows).
On the other hand, the good news is: Asset Control works really well after the 3.0 firmware update. , It is not gapless, and does not allow to control the volume or sources other than UPnP, but: a) it is free, b) it runs on a wireless laptop. Maybe that will do for the kids.
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Tog
Asset Control certainly looks good and illustrates ( absolutely no pun intended) the level of competition that exists for n-serve/stream within the Windows community. Asset based UPnP servers are by Naim's own admission the next best thing to their own software.
My point however is this, Spoon and the Asset developers have a very dynamic relationship with their users - their forums are used to have a running dialogue with the developers over bug issues, development milestones, wish lists and importantly, timescales. The conversations are clear, frank and honest about what their software can, cannot and will do in the future. Consequently there is far less moaning on their threads and their software development cycle appears much quicker.
Naim could learn a lot from this approach.
Tog
My point however is this, Spoon and the Asset developers have a very dynamic relationship with their users - their forums are used to have a running dialogue with the developers over bug issues, development milestones, wish lists and importantly, timescales. The conversations are clear, frank and honest about what their software can, cannot and will do in the future. Consequently there is far less moaning on their threads and their software development cycle appears much quicker.
Naim could learn a lot from this approach.
Tog
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by pcstockton
Originally Posted by Tog:
Naim could learn a lot from this approach.
Tog
Maybe so. But how nice is Asset's DAC. How about their preamps?Tog
One is a software developer. One is a hifi designer/mfr.
Why any of you are relying on, or even wanting, Naim to supply this part of your solution is beyond me.
No offense to Naim but I will rely on developers like those in the Foobar community or the extraordinary J River.
If I had a Qute or NDX I would still use Foobar and JRiver, Remote and PlugPlayer. Period.
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Tog
Understood...
Yet Naim made the choice to become a software developer and sell their streamers/renderers/servers on the strength of their UPnP software. Whether it is as good as that provided by third parties is a matter for conjecture.
My point was about the healthy, mutually beneficial relationships between software developer and software user that exist at Asset or Foobar and in the wider Open Source community.
Tog
Yet Naim made the choice to become a software developer and sell their streamers/renderers/servers on the strength of their UPnP software. Whether it is as good as that provided by third parties is a matter for conjecture.
My point was about the healthy, mutually beneficial relationships between software developer and software user that exist at Asset or Foobar and in the wider Open Source community.
Tog
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Tonkis Q
Short list of what I expect when buying an £30 app. I have o good network and stable NAS with twonky.
- Faster, it's to slow when searching an so on.
- Search function is tricky to use, hard to only touch the magnifying glas.
- Covers are missing even if the albums have correct cover files
- Volyme control should work smother
- Non Upnp input works fine
Posted on: 01 March 2011 by Alamanka
Originally Posted by pcstockton:
Originally Posted by Tog:
Naim could learn a lot from this approach.
Tog
Maybe so. But how nice is Asset's DAC. How about their preamps?Tog
One is a software developer. One is a hifi designer/mfr.
Why any of you are relying on, or even wanting, Naim to supply this part of your solution is beyond me.
No offense to Naim but I will rely on developers like those in the Foobar community or the extraordinary J River.
If I had a Qute or NDX I would still use Foobar and JRiver, Remote and PlugPlayer. Period.
The reason why Naim has to be part of the solution is because the Naim UPnP implementation is not fully compatible with non Naim software.
As a consequence, it is only possible to have gapless replay, control the volume, or switch input sources on the NaimUniti through the proprietary Naim application.
Since Naim does not document its UPnP Api's, the third party engineers cannot make their application work well with NaimUniti.
As customers, this is limiting our options with UPnP.
On one hand, Naim does not deliver what we would like to have, and at the same Naim does not provide the information that would allow third party to offer an alternate solution.
Hope it clarifies.
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by DavidDever
Originally Posted by Alamanka:
Originally Posted by pcstockton:
Originally Posted by Tog:
Naim could learn a lot from this approach.
Tog
Maybe so. But how nice is Asset's DAC. How about their preamps?Tog
One is a software developer. One is a hifi designer/mfr.
Why any of you are relying on, or even wanting, Naim to supply this part of your solution is beyond me.
No offense to Naim but I will rely on developers like those in the Foobar community or the extraordinary J River.
If I had a Qute or NDX I would still use Foobar and JRiver, Remote and PlugPlayer. Period.
The reason why Naim has to be part of the solution is because the Naim UPnP implementation is not fully compatible with non Naim software.
As a consequence, it is only possible to have gapless replay, control the volume, or switch input sources on the NaimUniti through the proprietary Naim application.
Since Naim does not document its UPnP Api's, the third party engineers cannot make their application work well with NaimUniti.
As customers, this is limiting our options with UPnP.
On one hand, Naim does not deliver what we would like to have, and at the same Naim does not provide the information that would allow third party to offer an alternate solution.
Hope it clarifies.
As for UPnP compatibility–nearly every manufacturer (Linn, Logitech and Sonos included) has had to roll their own extensions to the protocols inasmuch as the specification is both dynamic and insufficient. If Naim's implementation works best with their servers (as a consequence of a good-faith implementation of the written UPnP specification at the server end), then I am happy with that.
There exists no reference implementation of a UPnP server, one that slices, dices and is omniscient as to the capabilities of its clients (even when they should advertise these capabilities according to the specification, but don't)–therefore, you work to develop the best footprint of features given your own needs. That is reasonable and fair–worrying about compatibility with an incomplete UPnP implementation in a competing product is charitable at best.
In some cases, other manufacturers have had to add UPnP "fallback" modes so that the devices would still interoperate, albeit at a very basic but constrained level of functionality.
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by Tog
David - what is a "good-faith implementation" of UPnP specification and has it been established that Naim's implementation works best?
Tog
Tog
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by DavidDever
A good-faith implementation of the specification (for a UPnP server) should include testing against a wide variety of clients.
Take out of box, connect to network, turn on, rip CDs–done. No faffing about. Works with Linn DS and Sonos as well. Consume pint, place feet on chair–enjoy.
Isn't that what it's about?
As for UPnP player (client) implementation–gapless replay and input selection are not part of the specification–these are extensions.
Volume control is part of the UPnP specification and (inasmuch at it is handled in the analogue domain with the NaimUniti and UnitiQute, rather than the digital domain) is due for inclusion at some point. There is no support in the UPnP specification for the type of volume control that n-Stream provides via the NDX for volume nudge commands, to operate the current range of preamps with Alps motorized potentiometers–again, these are extensions.
Take out of box, connect to network, turn on, rip CDs–done. No faffing about. Works with Linn DS and Sonos as well. Consume pint, place feet on chair–enjoy.
Isn't that what it's about?
As for UPnP player (client) implementation–gapless replay and input selection are not part of the specification–these are extensions.
Volume control is part of the UPnP specification and (inasmuch at it is handled in the analogue domain with the NaimUniti and UnitiQute, rather than the digital domain) is due for inclusion at some point. There is no support in the UPnP specification for the type of volume control that n-Stream provides via the NDX for volume nudge commands, to operate the current range of preamps with Alps motorized potentiometers–again, these are extensions.
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by Tog
I think the point that is being made is that the pint/foot/relax experience is better with Remote 2 than currently with n-stream/serve. Whilst Remote 2 isn't UPnP is it possible David to have a Naim implementation under UPnP that is at least as good as Remote 2 or Soolos?
Perhaps Tom could advise as to whether the features in Remote 2 are feasable within the constraints of UPnP - I realize that DAAP handles caching and album art in a very different way.
Tog
Perhaps Tom could advise as to whether the features in Remote 2 are feasable within the constraints of UPnP - I realize that DAAP handles caching and album art in a very different way.
Tog
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by Alamanka
Excellent, we are making progress
Here is therefore another official request to Naim R&D
- Please make the Uniti NetAPI documentation publicly available on Naim's website
Thanks.
Here is therefore another official request to Naim R&D
- Please make the Uniti NetAPI documentation publicly available on Naim's website
Thanks.
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by likesmusic
FWIW I think the Asset software family is pretty crummy - I use dBpoweramp, and while I believe it rips accurately it is horrible to use with a frustratingly poor user interface. Asset UPnP is an acquired taste too - many undocumented or even unintelligible features. Asset Control is just a tease. As for foobar .. it is a vocation. These are products for aficionados who enjoy the sufferings of underdeveloped software, not for folk who just want to rip and rock.
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by Tog
Originally Posted by likesmusic:
FWIW I think the Asset software family is pretty crummy - I use dBpoweramp, and while I believe it rips accurately it is horrible to use with a frustratingly poor user interface. Asset UPnP is an acquired taste too - many undocumented or even unintelligible features. Asset Control is just a tease. As for foobar .. it is a vocation. These are products for aficionados who enjoy the sufferings of underdeveloped software, not for folk who just want to rip and rock.
"Asset control is just a tease" - what a wonderful expression - but don't let Spoon hear you say that ...tog
Posted on: 02 March 2011 by lhau
To TJ:
I find there are 2 issues:
1) Some Chinese Characters became ? on the Uniti Screen but can be shown on the nStream App, this is great
2) I find that when a directory contains many Chinese file names, it is likely to disconnect with the nStream, even though I can continue to use the remote and the screen on the Uniti. So perhaps that disconnection was due to Language code support problem?
I find there are 2 issues:
1) Some Chinese Characters became ? on the Uniti Screen but can be shown on the nStream App, this is great
2) I find that when a directory contains many Chinese file names, it is likely to disconnect with the nStream, even though I can continue to use the remote and the screen on the Uniti. So perhaps that disconnection was due to Language code support problem?