Is n-Stream working with homeplugs an issue?

Correct.. screening your mains ring wiring in metal trunking is one partial mitigation, but doesn't tend to be done in the UK in homes  as far as I am aware, perhaps for cost saving reasons, although I was told it is more prevalent in Germany? Perhaps someone from Germany could comment?

Simon

I need to find some way of measuring the EMF, I think.

Simon,

In addition to warning about the possible health issues, perhaps you could also help Graeme (and others) understand some of the ways to mitigate the sound degrading effects both the EMI and the mains born RFI can have on their audio equipment?  Most people still don't understand this well.  Granted it's less important than any health issue, but a few simple measures can work wonders!

I too have been wondering about the desirability of EMI shielding of mains wiring (although I probably wouldn't get permission to do it in a listed building).

This is a nice article about measuring EMF in homes

http://www.createhealthyhomes.com/emf_meters.php

cheers

Aleg

Thank you, Aleg. It gives me a cosy glow to find a whole new avenue of music-related expense. Or maybe it's the EMF that's doing that.

Alternatively, you could take up the violin and buy a Stradivarius .

Sorry... couldn't resist!

Yep, but I could stream 24/192 without problems, so it was good enough for my needs. 

Huge, this is a big evolving topic, and I probably am only aware of tiny part of it.

My advice can only be blunt and simple.

1) dont use devices that deliberately RF modulate the mains; Ethernet over mains, smart metering devices, mains automation devices.

2) ensure LED lighting is from reputable manufacturer and get your electrician to measure the EM/RF emissions.

3) keep wifi access points away from bedrooms and/or switch off at night.

4) keep DECT phones away from bedrooms, at least base stations.

5) turn off GSM/3G/LTE phones at night especially in bedrooms.

6) ensure solar panels use a quality inverter that is properly filtered and panel wiring is correctly shielded.

7) be mindful that laptops radiate.. So don't keep them on your lap for too long.

8) switch tablets off when not in use.

9) use a master socket ADSL filter rather than separate filters on the end of the extensions.

10) have your microwave checked for leaks.

i guess the above is common sense, and is what I do. If you are worried you can get a consumer grade EM/RF meter... There are some relatively affordable ones that are quite sensitive on EM fields, but quality RF meters seem to cost more.

One good piece of news is that CRTs were often bad for radiation, but are largely extinct now in the home...

Simon

Excellent post Simon. You've made me very curious, and I am going to shop for an EM/RF meter. I don't suppose we fully understand the impact of long-term exposure, but it can not be good for us. I guess that, short of moving to the wilderness, there is no real escaping the constant bombardment. But then again, it would be easy to reduce EM/RF levels by taking just a few of the common sense steps you suggest. Thanks a lot for the reminder to so.

ATB.

Hook

It is the same research, they are talking about mobile phones which will have a much higher intensity of radiation emission right next to your head than home plugs.  None of the studies have been able show any causal link between mobile phones and ill-health using proper double-blind testing.

Perhaps we shouldn't use WiFi either!

Bill, actually I believe the WHO electromagnetic project is looking at far more wide reaching effects rather than the rather well documented RF heating from mobile phones etc. specifically it's also looking at long term exposure to low level electromagnetic, not RF, exposure.

There are some countries such as Sweden have shown a correlation with certain health conditions and certain types of EM exposure, trouble is regulation and advice is not globally consistent hence why I believe amongst other things why the UN has got involved to help standardise and make any warnings/advice consistent. 

However Electromagnetic Hyper Sensitivity does cross RF/EM boundaries. Having personally experienced the health  interactions in this area with me and my family, it's certainly not funny... But it has been easy to remove once diagnosed .. Switch off EM/RF fields where possible at night in the bedrooms... and I can say GSM phone radiation patterns and shielding have certainly improved since the early GSM phones where I did experience discomfort with use.

Simon.   

Good posts Simon.

I had been wondering whether to start a thread on this topic specifically, as I think many people would be very interested in it and be appreciative of some simple direction, as posted above. Besides, it certainly deserves a thread all to its own where we can access it via the search.

I suspect there may also be some people here that may be suffering from slight health issues from RFI in the home without realising.

In my line of work, back in the UK, this issue cropped up now and then as clients had started to design their houses with extensive networking facilities and had come across such reports mentioned above. 

Once again, good posts.

Jason.

Perhaps it does but where do we start and where do we stop.  ALL digital equipment will emit RF, ALL switching power supplies will emit RF, couple this with WiFi hubs, Microwave ovens and mobile phones and just maybe we should be afraid.  BUT there is no real evidence for any of it.

Is a wifi hub safer than using ip over mains?  But we all happily use a wifi hub I suspect.

When we first got married we bought a place in Crystal Palace, it was an amazing house, Victorian with a tower on one corner.  But I could never use my FM Tuner there because all I got was the sound track from ITV!  Even though the aerial was wrong the tuning circuits in the tuner were wrong there was so much UHF from the TV Transmitter just down the road it just flooded everything.  Some nights when it was damp, which was quite often in this old house, the radiators would emit ITV sound.  But were people complaining and falling dead in the street?  NO, even though the transmitter pumped out so much energy it could fry birds that got too close.

What I would say to Graeme is do a bit of research of your own on the subject and if you are worried then don't use it.  My findings with IP over mains is that speeds claimed by the manufacturers are exaggerated, to say the least and that is the biggest problem.  Your best bet would undoubtedly be to hardwire, then you won't have a worry about RF emission or the speed of the connection.  But I realise that is not necessarily an easy option.

If anyone can present some real, hard evidence with sources identified and available then please do so, but otherwise....

Jason were the problems you mentioned in houses that were hardwired?  In new houses you expect the networking to be hardwired.  So it seems possible that even hardwiring could cause a problem.

Simon, thank you for the list of possible sources, It's good to have this in one place.  While I knew most of these, some I hadn't spotted.  I have a fair knowledge of RFI issues and sources (from my career as a scientific instrument designer), but my degree of knowledge just goes to let me see how much more you know than I.

As a biologist I know that there is currently no proven mechanism for problems caused by low energy non-ionising radiation, but then 125 years ago that was the case for nuclear radiation!

Unfortunately for this type of problem, i.e. where there are possible health implications, direct testing is completely unethical.  This is true whether the tests are double blind (or even single blind as has been advocated for other problems in other threads) or not.  Let's hope that the WHO's epidemiological and in vitro studies can achieve statistically significant conclusions.  Then we'll know (even without blind testing).

For those who are worried or believe they may be sensitive, then until the situation becomes clear, probably the best advice is to limit one's exposure where practical; but do this in moderation.  Please don't destroy all the joy in your life in a futile effort to get rid of all RF exposure.

What's that I can smell? BS I think.

btw it is the WHO who are talking about double-blind testing and it does not have to be unethical.  But of course as a scientific instrument designer and a biologist you would know this.

I can still smell it, what?  BS I think.

Huge, this is very good advice.. And of course if you are experiencing possible symptoms then for most it relatively easy to change one's behaviour and/or environment to see if the symptoms cease or change... As it has been the case in the S-in-S household. 

As a radio amateur I am certainly am aware of RF / EM fields and frequently legally generate ERP of up to 1.2KW at up to  28 MHz, but well away, as I am fortunate that I have the space, from my house and neighbour''s (and indeed the EM field strength which rapidly falls away with distance was a consideration in the planning application for the antenna tower) and over the years no ill effects or side effects at all have been experienced. So I believe knowledge and correct application is a good thing, and all things RF or EM related are not automatically bad... It's just handle with respect and from a position of awareness.  Just because you can't see it, smell it or touch it, it doesn't mean it's  not there, as my late great uncle ultimately found when he died through cumulated radiation exposure as a radiographer before those things were more understood.

Simon

I think you and Huge should get a room Simon.

btw people were still dying of radiation poisoning long after it was known how dangerous it was, likewise for tobacco smoke.  Things are different nowadays.

Can you provide details of any tests that conclusively backup what you are saying about ip over mains?

Bill what tests are you referring to with IP over mains? Is it RF/EM emissions? If so yes I personally was involved with some investigations with Ofcom on this, and the distributor was requested to remove the devices based on the emissions evidence. I will see if I can dig out the Ofcom case number..but there were commercial sensitivities and data protection involved as private households and commercial interests were involved.. And the devices were legal..

i know there have been countless controlled testing by accredited test labs including by the RSGB, I will see if I can find if any is published on the web... as you may  know or appreciate with this kind of thing, a lot of this testing is not in the public domain because of commercial sensitivities to the manufacturers concerned.

There are countless public domain articles on YouTube etc, but clearly they are mostly anecdotal and not formally undertaken.

Simon

EDIT.. I have found some public domain emission tests that were privately funded  and some shared by three manufacturers from a pressure group trying to outlaw these devices because of RF/EM emissions. Also there are some interesting emission graphs from domestic ring main wiring with PLAs transmitting on it.

http://www.ban-plt.org.uk/tests.php

Bill.. Interested in the thoughts on the emission traces  I posted a link too. Of course your devices could well be different or you might feel it is irrelevant as no direct health association Is currently proven... Even so I guess some of us would  be interested in your views.

BTW the point about my great uncle is  he was a scientist, but had no reason to be cautious about X Rays and Gamma Rays ... But as you say things are different now and we are naturally more cautious now and some of us just prefer to be cautious where there may be potential issues. Long term low level EM exposure is something I feel cautious about, not least because my personal  family experiences, but each to their own view. But clearly there is also interest from forum members such as Hook, Jason as well as Huge.. and if nothing else it has perhaps raised awareness about EM/RF fields in the modern home.

Simon

Point I am trying to make is that Graeme was asking about ip over mains.  You then start talking about possible problems caused RF emissions and I accept there has been for some time a worry over the use of mobile phones.  But NO study has yet shown that the use of mobile phones causes any health problems, this is for the use of the phone itself and for people living close to masts.  ip over mains will not emit at anything like the intensity of the average mobile phone.

So unless you can offer some proof or experimental evidence of dangers associated with using ip over mains then I think you are only confusing the matter.

ps do you or your family members use a mobile phone at all?  Or a microwave oven?

Bill I have shown you evidence of EM emissions of PLA from accrecited test houses that  you asked me for , what are your views, were you expecting this from PLA or surprised? I was surprised...

I am glad others on this forum can hopefully start to make an  informed choice on what continuous low level EM fields they invite into their houses and families.. if they should be concerned about it.

PS did you resolve your PLA drop out issue? Was it EM interference related do you think?

Simon

But what does it prove?  As I asked before do you use a mobile phone?  If you do then you have something that emits high intensity RF energy extremely close to your brain.  Now taking into account the inverse square law what should we be more frightened of?

I personally have always hated mobile phones and have used them as little as possible.  Now I am retired my old phone sits in a draw most of the time, I rarely need to use it.  Even when I was working I often used to "forget" the thing when I left home in the morning.  But I hate them not because they have caused me any problems that I know about but because I hate how intrusive they are and don't start me off on texting please.  I even used to get annoyed at pagers but at least they didn't demand immediate attention.

Anyway I digress.  I still haven't seen evidence that any of this stuff is dangerous and I certainly haven't seen any evidence to suggest that ip over mains is more dangerous than mobile phones, masts or wifi.   Remember Graeme was asking about ip over mains, so if you think he should not use it for safety reasons are you going to advise him to bin his mobile phone too?

Actually I shared some advice in terms of what I do earlier on in the thread... which covered mobile phones and microwaves, albeit I beleive that is different to low level long term EM interaction that I was referring to with PLA, some smart metering etc.

But I agree with you.. I don't like using mobile phones that much .. But for me it's the idea  of that high frequency RF transmitter close to my head.. And so I do try and minimise its use..and definitely don't leave in bedroom / near bed when sleeping. And if I get a 'dry' feeling in my neck/ throat when on the phone I stop straightaway.. But I have found with new phones this happens rarely now..I assume through better shielding and radiation patterns.

As far as consistent health impact, there are as I have said disparate evidences one way and the other, hence one of the objectives of the WHO Electrmagnetic project is to harmonise health impacts one way or other from EM fields. So these points have been about possible long term health impacts.. Rather than certain at this time..

Slightly off topic.. I was reading the planning applications for the East Anglia Array  wind turbine farm out in the North Sea which has just been given the go head.. I think it will be largest in the world once complete . It  describes the negative EM impact to eels and similar creatures in habitats close to the turbines and cabling. It would appear there is evidence about EM harm to these types of creatures, just not  proven one way or another for humans currently.

Did your Ethernet over Powerline issues get resolved ok, or are you still suffering.. ?

Simon

Definite ain't proven, not only that we are not eels.

If the WHO come up with the result that RF energy causes humans health issues then we have a big problem.  We are flooded with RF energy, so how could we decrease?  As I said earlier every bit of digital equipment you use will emit RF energy, so will we all go back to analog?  Hey that's not a bad idea.

Hmm..


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