NDX!

Can the NDX stream with 192/24 in future ( firmware) ?



Ralf

No, but it might stream 24/192 instead, not bad either ;-)

No controversy seen.  I am mildly curious, yes.  I like the dac and I'm assuming I will like the NDX.  Heck, I like the Qute.  I have heard enough in the grapevine to know that these are two distinct products and they both have their places in a Naim system but possibly not both in the same one.  I am more interested in how an XPS2 performs with the NDX than I am the Dac to be quite honest.  That is no cop out just my own
opinion.  The XPS2 has proved time and again to bring more to a system than one at first thinks so the inclusion of the option to have one on the NDX seems to me to point clearly and unambigulously to it's worth as far as Naim is concerned and who am I to argue?

I am still of the opinion that the digital out on the NDX will someday be used as a way to a higher level dac than the one that is currently being produced.

Realhifi -

I like your theory, and agree that it would make sense.  

Am curious about the NDX "voicing", but cannot imagine trading my DAC in for one.  Just cannot get past the concept of trading the "upgrade" product in for the "base" product.  And I think that $5750 (with FM) is just way too steep for a transport.   IMHO, the NDX needs to succeed or fail as a standalone product.

A future NDX+ with dac technology that surpasses the current DAC?  Count me in.  A future NDX- with no dac, and digital output only?  Cut the price in half, call it a streamer, and I'm in! 

Now this is going to sound really silly, but...if Naim did have a reference DAC at say, a CD555 price point, then perhaps $5750 wouldn't look so out of scale for a transport! 

Hook

Good observation AllenB.   Makes a lot of sense.  Would be nice to see Naim maintain last year's pace of new product introductions, but the odds of them doing so seem pretty long.

Am listening to the DAC/555PS right now, and trying to imagine how the sound could be improved.  I understand that there is always room for enhancement, and that no audio component is ever perfect.  But I have to believe that the way forward from here will be very challenging, very expensive, and fraught with very diminishing returns.

But it would be really cool to be proved wrong!

Hook

PS - Did I read that you were on holiday in India?  Hope you are having a wonderful time.  Will you be posting some pics?

Not so sure... Intuitively, when you design a new product like the NDX, I would think you would give it your best shot. Then maybe later, reflecting on the experience, you can try to imagine something even better. But is it really possible to do a product so significantly better immediately after the first iteration? Not sure.

Hiya,

Maybe I can chuck in my £0.02 (£0.03 after the recent VAT rise)...

Now, this is all just *IN MY OPINION* and I know that I'm not good at "doing HiFi" - the only P.R.A.T. I can talk about with any authority is a friend of mine. I'm a firm believer in the "If it sounds better to *YOU* then that's what's important ... " and I hate being asked "Which is better? x or y?" or "What should I buy next?" because I don't like to think that someone is spending money on my say-so. I'm "support" and not "sales" - use your dealer to get demos and decide for yourself - but I do *LOVE* my music and movies and that's why I work for Naim, hell, I even get "you really are very sad" (when I order another bit of kit) or "are you insane?" (when I decided I *NEEDED* the second n-Sub) looks from people at work so I must be doing something right, right? :-D

I've got an HDX and an NDX at home as "development mules" - they're what we use for testing the next versions of code on before it's released to you guys. The rest of my system (much to the distress of my bank manager) is owned and paid for with my own folding beer tokens so please don't go under any illusion that we just pick up kit and take it home for free ... anything that is in my system is in it because I believe it adds something and therefore it has a place there.

So - after all that - *IN MY OPINION* the Naim DAC has a rather different sound to the HDX and NDX and it's one that I found agreeable enough for me to buy one.

IMO the HDX and NDX natively have a fairly "lean" sound that I assume to be the typical "Naim" sound that people refer to (I've not played with our CD players to any real degree as I don't like faffing about with CDs)...

Adding an XPS to either / both (again *IMO*) adds weight and solidity to the bottom end...

Running through the Naim DAC (again *IMO*) adds a warmth to both sources that works well in *MY* system and adding an XPS/555PS seems to add "grunt" to the bottom end without getting flabby. (For example, Massive Attack's "Protection" has a bassline that sounds disgustingly loose, maybe even flatulent ... Unlistenable on every system I had before I started at Naim I had simply stopped playing it but it's handled easily and sounds nicely defined - even "solid" - on my setup now.)

It seems that there are a lot of people making the assumption that the NDX *HAS* to be partnered with a Naim DAC and/or Power Supply to sound good because they've seen us demo it in that way but my view on it is that you should listen to it and do what works in the context of your own system. I know that with a very slightly different setup (if I was still using the Allaes) then I don't think the DAC+XPS combo would make as much of a positive contribution because of the different tonal balance (and capabilities) of the Allaes compared to what I'm currently using.

Does that help at all?

Phil

A lot.  Thank you Phil.

This is the first time I can recall since joining this forum some 2 1/2 years ago that I have seen a Naim employee post their thoughts on how anything from Naim actually sounds to their own ears.

It was very much appreciated, and I hope it starts a new trend.  

I think most of us customers are very curious what you Naim folks think.  I can understand not wanting to create a bias or anything, but I've always thought it was kind of a shame not hearing from the people who have the most experience!

I am thinking back to the many month long threads about whether sources for the DAC could possibly sound different (given the DAC's buffering/reclocking).  Hundreds and hundreds of customer posts, and not a peep out of anyone from Naim.   Would have been very helpful back then....as it is now.

Thanks again.

Hook

I'll stress again that I don't "do" HiFi speak ... I couldn't tell you whether something "times" correctly or maintains rhythm. I can't tell the difference between my HDX and NDX when playing through my DAC now (however I suprised myself by reliably telling the difference between the two on Paul Stephensons system back last December). I can't tell the difference between a FLAC playing via the HDX and a WAV. Right now my system at home is better than I am but do I expect that to always be the case? I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there are no "right" answers and everyone has their own ideas and opinions - just look at some of the debates that spring up on here!

I'm just like you guys in that I love listening to music and I think that goes for most people there - I've "only" been there four years and still get suprised when I'm presented with something that sounds clearly different but shouldn't because my "computers" background is screaming "but numbers are numbers - as long as the numbers are the same it sounds the same" ... but whatever our own opinions on something may be it's what *YOU* are happy with in the context of your own system that is what matters.

Phil

Splendid posts Phil - thanks.

Hi,
having just received a NDX last Saturday, and having played around with it in various configurations, I thought that I would post my first impressions.
I already have a nDac + 555PS that I currently use with a Laptop / W7 + M2Tech Hiface (BNC).

I initially put the NDX in my system, stand alone, playing via USB as my domestic network is not yet ready; considering that I am used to the nDac + 555PS the result was rather good. The Naim sound and characteristics were all there even though bass was leaner and transparency a bit veiled, but very engaging and all within one box.

I then added the 555PS to the NDX: the bass was back and the veil was lifted. Great ! It seemed very similar to what I was used to.

I then added the nDac into the equation, leaving the 555PS with the NDX: not much of a difference with the above result. Maybe just a tiny bit clearer (maybe) and bass as before.

I then decided to compare the NDX's Dac with the nDac, and so I hooked up my laptop+ HiFace to the NDX with 555PS: again the sound was very good and I could not really tell any distinct difference with what I would normally hear. The voicing is slightly less forward, but we are not talking about distinct differences.

So then I put the 555PS to the nDac and hooked up my laptop there, as I normally played my music before the arrival of the NDX: as above but with a slight (only slight) crispier sound.

Last but not least, playing the NDX (via USB) with the nDac + 555PS vs. the Laptop with the nDac + 555PS was also an easy one: the NDX wins hands down, showing its quality simply as a streamer.

All in all I find the NDX a very convincing product and if someone doesn't own a nDac I would not buy one to upgrade it as I find that the NDX's dac is pretty much on par with the nDac (even though not equal), IMHO of course and based upon the above comparisons, but I would certainly buy a PS for it as that addition gave a distinct upgrade to the sound.

I have not tried adding a PSU to the winning combination i.e. NDX with nDac + 555PS, but I am expecting a distinct upgrade there as well considering that the same PS upgrade produced a significant result with the NDX's internal dac.

The above of course is not meant to be anything absolute but just what I heard and my conclusions, without too many hifi terms :-)

All the best.
Stefano

Great write up Stefano!

Has anyone tried demoing a NDX with files ripped on a HDX/UnitiServe versus files ripped on a PC which has been properly setup for ripping? I know there is lots of technical discussion around this but really what I am interested in is what people have heard when comparing.

I am interested in a NDX but couldn't stretch to a Unitiserve to go with it or to a HDX.

Thanks

Hi Stefano,
good writing, thanks!

Ralf

Compared NDX that arrived today vs Linn MDS and the latter wins hands down. Totally unexpected for me so I hope this will change after some days of breaking in

MDS or ADS?

Interesting review Stefano. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

James

MDS but NDX seems to improve any second playing

:-) give it 3 days and it'll shine!

Pk, though I hear it slightly yelling for a PS555

Stefano, thanks for the write-up. Came to very similar conclusions.

I would give at least 3 days for any Naim source to burn in and a week for external power supplies.
The complete burn in may take more than a month. 
During this time the sound is getting softer, bass is getting weightier, the noise floor is getting down and microdynamic is increasing. Overall the transformation is quite substantial even after the first week. Listening for Naim boxes during the first 3 days is worthless experience. Naim is not exceptional in this -- many top gears take long time to burn in (mostly due to massive power sections).  

BTW Linn is something exceptional in regarding of burn-in.  
I guess this is related to switch-mode nature of their PS.
I remember the KDS sounded FANTASTIC straight out of the box.
The fully burnt HDX sounded much veiled comparing to the newborn KDS -- both hooked on Naim system.

Regarding the Linn, I hope it's not on the same power block. Its SMPS will interfere with the rest of the system.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Frank - how is it that LINN SMPS supplies (supposedly) cause problems and Naim SMPS (HDX / N-Vi / Serve) don't ?

My ADS doesn't seem to cause any issues with my system ?

James

It's not just Linn SMPSs. Others do it too. I wasn't aware of it with the HDX and n-Vi but I don't recall doing in-depth testing. If using anything with an SMPS, the best is to put it on a filter to stop the noise. The best used to be a Chord Clearway but they stopped making them which was a darned shame.

The typical effect is a flattening of dynamics.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

After intensive comparisons between MDS and NDX for Four days now, I still have no clear preference, Linn sounds more open, naim a bit more forward. Will probably compare ADS and/or KDS against NDX/XPS2 or PS555 to decode which route to go in the long run. MDS is quite amazing for the money.