New Project. Old English Cycle to be Reborn.

Argos are great. They'll do a good job. They should be able to tell you more about the frame, too.

Dear Winki,

I have been giving much thought to ratios assuming a front single chain wheel of fifty teeth. Sticking with the 120 mm rear axle, I could get a five speed IRD "Defiant" freewheel from 13 to 28 tooth cogs that will sit well under my spare Suntour [MEADA INDUSTRY, JAPAN] real derailleur [the first to use the non-right angle pantograph, and my one is mint] which would emulate the range on my current Campag Super Record arrangement of 42 and 53 front cogs over 14 to 24 teeth on the [IRD] freewheel on my Green Carlton. Top cog is currently pleasant for slight downhills, and the top on the 50 over 13 would be slightly shorter ... Bottom cog would be similar, and enough for any sensible hill in this area.

I think that it is likely that the red cycle will get the upright North Road bar and the green Carlton will revert to the drop use of the NR bar.

So if I am not feeling so energetic on the way to work, then I can hop on the red bike, and if I am amazingly fired up I'll mount the more sporty cycle!

Thanks for your post!

ATB from George

George,

Congrats on getting a far more sensible frame size!

Looking at the braise-ons it looks like a mass-produced factory frame from the 60s or 70s, and going by the lamp holder on right folk leg, pump holders on cross bar, and mudguard eyes, it should be made up to be a fairly practical any weather touring and plodder bike.

The lug work looks strong and functional but nothing special, but what you need to hope for is some kind of quality tubing, it may just be a standard plain gauge but would be nice if it’s double butted Reynolds.

What size frame is it from centre bottom bracket to top of seat tube?

What's the wheel base?

Hope you’re having it re-painted a better colour than post box bleeding red, people will think you’re a Postman delivering the mail riding that! ; )

Debs

Dear Debs,

I agree completely with your post.

I somehow doubt this is a Carlton frame. Not quite fancy enough.

The length from the middle of the BB to the top of the seat tube is 21.5 inches, compared with 23.5 inches for my green Carlton!

The lengths between axles is 42 inches compared to 40 inches on my green bike.

The frame as stripped down weighs 3.8 kg. or 7.6 lbs. Rather lightweight in reality. The tubes ring like bells which does indicate quality rather than gas-pipe. The all up weight with all equipment was exactly 12 kg, so there is room to make a light commuter weighing rather less than it started!

I agree that the lugging is simple but graceful, and even the bottom bracket is finished nicely, though not fancy.

My plan is to make the cycle an all year bike with mudguards and the upright North Road bar, while the green Carlton will revert to the dropped North Road bar for when I am feeling energetic!

Maybe you visit and ride one or the other, when the project is finished off?

I plan a metalic maroon or dark red as the finished paint, not SIGNAL RED!

Very best wishes from George

Weight correction ... 3.8 kg is 8.28 lbs!

ATB from George

George,

the wrap-around seat-stay maybe a clue to who built it, it's not unique but unusual.

The picture below [I found searching the internet] is an example from a Falcon Olympic.

Dear Debs,

The frame is certainly English, as the BB has English thread. And is certainly handmade, rather than a factory mass-produced work because of the way this tube runs round the seat tube. 

It is a simple thing without fancy lug-work, but has very good tubing, because poor tubing does not ring like a bell, but responds with a dull thud.

The frame is rather fascinating in its lack of answers to obvious questions. The forks are typical of Reynolds 531 with their pronounced curve forward in the blades.

As Winki suggests, no doubt Argos will have an idea what it actually is. If no definitive answer emerges, then I shall not get a Carlton sticker for the front, but let Argos fit their own restoration sticker.

What is certain is that it does ride very nicely, with that typical quality of a good steel frame, to be both resilient, and also good over bumps. When I had a similar sized Elswick Hopper framed cycle that weighed near 30 lbs, this rode like a true bone shaker, without good turning in on corners. That frame was bolted at the place where the seat stay tubes fit the rear drop outs. Raleigh cycles of that time were also bolted at this place on the rear drop-out. This does nothing for solidity though makes mass production easier. And yet the ride was harsh without the feeling of directional precision. These heavy and harsh cycles relied on large tyres to soak up the roughness.

ATB from George

George

Good luck in restoring the bicycle, it is good to know that there are chaps like you keeping these bikes on the road.

As regards to the "looking like a postman" comment, you will be fine as long as you do not fit mudguards painted white, then it would look like an ex post office bike.

Regards

Mick

Dear Mick,

What is so nice is that in stripping down the old cycle, one can see just how nicely made these things were. Real craftsmanship on show. 

At work I was told I must be mad to do it by a colleague, who himself rides to work everyday on a cycle. I pointed out that in the last eight years he has bought two new cycles, and yet this old machine was probably five times older than even his second bike, a Carrara, and still useful, even if a bit down at the heel just now. 

I reckon it will be running long after ninety percent of the new cycles in shops today have become unserviceable!

Built in obsolescence is the order of today, whereas these old machine were made so the parts are interchangeable, and so the bike can be serviced more or less indefinitely, at least for a good human lifespan. That is ecologically sound as well as satisfying!

ATB from George

Counterpoint: The only frame I've ever had fail during use was steel. I've never broken or worn out a carbon frame. I think they get replaced becuase of marketing and fashion, rather than due to any underlying durability disadvantage. I also find the new sealed bearings to be more durable and trouble-free than old cup-and cone bearings. Yes, you replace, rather than rebuild the bearings but that's no big deal.

I like old bikes, but new ones are better in every measurable way.

Dear Winki,

I am certainly not going to argue that modern bikes are a step back in any sense! On the other hand there is something very satisfying when a cycle has all its cup and cone bearings beautifully set up.

For example the headset bearings in my Green Carlton were a NOS [1970s] Super Record steel set I fitted a good four years ago, and it has been adjust up just one [nut] flat in the interim. Neither of my sets of Campag hubbed wheels have required adjustment, and spin as free as a good turntable!

Of course there was some frightful rubbish produced in the old days, just as there is today.

When I had the green Carlton re-enamelled at Argos years ago now, they were delighted to find a Reynolds 501 tube-set being saved for another few decades as people throw them out as being inferior to the venerable 531 frames. This they said was a an untruth. The guy said that the great thing about 501 was its greater resistance to corrosion, and ease of repairing the joints, should a lug ever break out. I don't use the bike in rough enough conditions to ever risk a premature failure. And the cycle has survived two crashes with cars. Still straight. I came off much worse myself!

The result of this is that I will not ride round-abouts, or traffic lights, preferring to cross as a pedestrian and take the extra time to ensure greater safety. I also no longer attempt to achieve my maximum potential speed, though I am as good as ever on hills.

So the last word in lightness is not crucial for me, though no doubt I appreciate a cycle at ten kilos more than I would one at 14 or 15 kilos!

A cycle weighing 6 or 7 is lost on me! I also love the simplicity of friction controlled gear shifting rather than indexed. It requires skill to use them well, but there is no damage to do to them really. Indexed gears and more than about six speeds on the cassette or freewheel does make for lesser reliability unless the tuning of the indexing is kept perfect. 

The red one is going to retain a single front chain wheel, and only a five speed freewheel, for simplicity's sake. I hardly use more than half of the eight [usable] gears on the green Carlton with its two front chain wheels and six speed freewheel. So long as the freewheel on the red cycle has a wide enough range of sprocket sizes, then it will suit me perfectly.

ATB from George

How pleasing this all is, what a nice thread.

As someone with a handbuilt unique steel bike, made by a Mr Zullo in a shed on Lake Garda I rather like the idea that Georges' great great grandson might discover it in a workshop and lovingly renovate it some decades hence.

Is my steel (Columbus XCR stainless) bike better than my carbon Parlee? Not in 'measurable' ways perhaps but it is a distinctive and different ride with a quality all its own. The performance/weight of this tubeset (and I believe other modern steels) is not so bad either.

Pics of it here in several posts in this thread https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...99#21277303089455099

Bruce

I am doing voluntary work wiith  a cycle charity.We get given bikes to either scrap or refurbish or restore. I am currently working on a lovely DAWES with a Reynolds 531 frame. It is a lovely bike. nearly stripped it down. Will start to refurbish it on Wednesday. It really does put a lot of modern bikes to shame.

This is an almost contemporary derailleur from the early 70s rather than the 60s and leads the way with an angled pantograph. It allows a wider range of sprockets on the freewheel than a right angle pantograph, which Campag persisted with into the early 1990s ...

The rear axle spacing is classic 120 mm. More or less. Slightly less in reality!

ATB from George

George.

How much will the re-enamelling cost, my old Flandria is in need of a facelift.

With regards to the English threads, it doesn't prove the bike is English, vintage Belguim bikes also use English threads.

Dear Fatcat,

The standard sand-blast back to metal and correctly primed and baked re-enamel is £140, which if the frame is nice is sweet nothing compared to a new bike of potential long life [in other words more than £500].

I quite agree that there is absolutely no concrete evidence about this frame's provenance. 

And strangely I am not worried. It rode beautifully before I pulled it down. The whole running gear is worn out apart from the rather good wheels. When it is built up again, it will be Sterling!

I am sure that you saw the New Carlton Thread. Argos do a superb job of the enamelling!

I have a perplexing little problem in that the nice back wheel has a silly 126 mm axle, and the drop out is 118-120 mm! Too much to spring gracefully, and no bike shop is remotely interested in selling me parts to space a Maillard hub from 126 to 120. Wienmann rims ...as you might expect from the time. The bastards would rather sell a new bike of course! 

ATB from George

Thanks George.

£140 seem a reasonable price. I'll probably be able to get it done cheaper than that "up north"

Maybe, you'll be able to pick up hard to find parts on ebay. I bought a set of vintage dura ace cable clamp from British Columbia and a set of pedals from Hungary. There's nothing you can't find on ebay.

Dear Fatcat,

Bristol is easy on the train for me, so they cost differential may be accounted for!

The cycle may well yet end up on a pair of 1960s high flange Campag hubs off ebay! I have a tolerant wheel building friend! He does not really question using ancient hubs if they spin well!

90 per cent of the parts on my lovely green Carlton were off ebay. A few failures, but cheap, and a few real finds. It is a bit pot luck, but it will be done! I never bid high on ebay!!!

ATB from George

£140 seems a lot to spend on that frame. I'd be inclined to try to find a higher-end frame. That one looks quite inexpensive with its stamped, rather than forged dropouts

Frames have been 125mm for ages. Try to find one that is more standard (and better quality).

I think we have gone away from this being a restoration of a classic English frame to fettling a hack frame. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't think there is any drift.

The frame is as described, an old one that unusually both rides very nicely and is actually my size!

Out of the deal I got a good pair of wheels that are worth as much as the frame and the re-enamel!

Altogether I imagine a useful winter cycle with mudguards that will still be a pleasure as a second summer cycle for perhaps a total spend of £300. You could not buy a new one that was any use at all for that!

As I said earlier, I am not the least concerned who the frame maker actually was as it goes well. I have had frames from good makers which I could totally not get on with, not least a Dawes!

ATB from George

Dear Winki,

The reason I like this old cycle - apart from the fact that the frame rolls and handles well - is that it is not precious!

That means I can be completely free with the restoration.

If I had a near mint cycle, the restoration would inevitably be better if it moved towards restoring originality. Whereas with this one, the first cost of £50 means nobody can accuse me of devaluing a thing of beauty! It may even get at least a nice new crankset on it, as there is no reason to do other than keep it as light as practical. Otherwise it will retain its archaic five speed gearing, which is normal on the old 120 mm rear axle spacing. Nothing would induce me to fit a double front chain-ring set.

But when all is said and done it will be a reliable and simple cycle that is significantly more suitable to my commuting needs than anything I could buy new for much more money. The only really simple bikes you can buy these days are both of appalling quality and very heavy.  That or things like the Pashley Govenor, which is certainly simple, weighs a ton, and just happens to be rather expensive as well, even if it might be expected to last like an old Raleigh Sovereign. Neither style appeals to me much, though simplicity does. A good if not classic [I never called it classic, and even suggested that it almost certainly was not a Carlton for example] frame that will be fitted out with a decent crankset, the existing wheels [which are good and round, and don't pulsate or squeal on the brakes], keeping the original lightweight Weinmann centre-pull brakes in all probability. And other parts from my stock of old time stuff in the draw that owes me nothing!

It's a project, but not an attempt to restore a classic rather than keep it simple, practical, and durable, and most of all something to be un-afraid of using for the sake of spoiling it in the winter!

I think you will find that frames from the period of the 120 mm rear axle spacing era mostly don't have forged drop-outs, even ones made of high quality tubing. I cannot see any particular advantage in forged drop-outs compared to stamped out steel parts ...

ATB from George