Libya
Posted by: JamieWednesday on 19 March 2011
All kicking off then...
I can't believe the French went in first!!!
I can't believe the French went in first!!!
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Let us sincerely hope that the resulting problems of the military action are not on the scale of Iraq or Afghanistan to mention two recent examples.
The revolutionaries are said in the news media to want assistance from international quarters, but I wonder how long that will last or even if this view is actually widespread among the Libyan population as a whole ...
Civilian casualties are simply an inevitable consequence, and there may already be some. It seems this is a hard lesson to learn for "interventionists." I believe that this will affect the attitude of the Libyan population as much as anything else, and in a very short time.
I imagine the reason we are interested in Libya is down to oil interests rather than anything high-minded. Otherwise we would have "intervened " in the Ivory Coast and Zimbabwe for two notable examples elsewhere on the African Continent.
As I get older, I tend to think that our Politicians seem far too eager for War, and far too little interested in Jaw.
I think that knowing as much as I can from the usual News sources, that I am rather against any sort of intervention in an area of the World, which is not European, not Christian in religion, and by no means close to our liberal and democratic culture. The potential with historical hindsight to be seen to have backed something even more horrible than the current regimes is not to be discounted.
Given the record of interventions outside our [speaking as a European of course] natural sphere of influence [and in this respect I regard the Bosnian intervention as being the right thing for Europeans to have been involved in] I believe it is up to North Africans and people of similar religious and political cultures to sort Libya out in their own way. We cannot and should not aim to imprint European ideals on different cultures in this post Imperial age, and we need to address ourselves to this fact. Those Imperial days are now several generations behind us, and experience really should have shown us by now the folly of it.
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by Mike-B
I have only one question - what defines the end game.
1. Start of bona fide political negotiations between all the Libyan parties
2. The Gaddafi regime overthrown
3. Gaddafi dead/exiled/ICC/retired to the desert/legitimately elected as president
(4) I dare say there is an etcetera or two in this list
My fear is that without troops on the ground it will be a stalemate, but with troops on the ground we will (again) be a western aggressor motivated by self interests.
1. Start of bona fide political negotiations between all the Libyan parties
2. The Gaddafi regime overthrown
3. Gaddafi dead/exiled/ICC/retired to the desert/legitimately elected as president
(4) I dare say there is an etcetera or two in this list
My fear is that without troops on the ground it will be a stalemate, but with troops on the ground we will (again) be a western aggressor motivated by self interests.
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Almost certainly this is a lose-lose situation for anyone who interferes in the affairs of a nation like Libya.
The interventionists will be blamed for whatever happens, and what will happen will not be pretty with or without intervention from foreign powers. The question that cannot be answered is whether it would be better for the Libyan population as a result of intervention. As this question cannot possibly be answered then the case for intervening fails, however horrible the results might be without such an intevention. It could well be worse as a direct result of the intervention.
It is part of the evolution of culture that such issues are faced-off and solved with the resourced of that society - not applied from without.
It is an act of supreme hubris for us to imagine that we can teach the Libyans anything today that they have not learned from us in the last milenium. It seems to me that they probably think they have a thing or two to teach us! Given that gulf of cultural values, it is best to watch [and possibly be deeply sadden by] the inevitable horrors without getting bitten in a fight of a civil war nature, and alienating the Libyan population more than isolationism obviously would to some degree.
When there is a new government there, albeit it may be years hence, then that is the time to make offical contacts at a diplomatic level.
This does not rule out making contacts with the potential replacement regimes, but the selection and installation of the next Libyan regime is a matter for Libya and her population, and certainly not for Europeans or Americans.
Sincerely, George
The interventionists will be blamed for whatever happens, and what will happen will not be pretty with or without intervention from foreign powers. The question that cannot be answered is whether it would be better for the Libyan population as a result of intervention. As this question cannot possibly be answered then the case for intervening fails, however horrible the results might be without such an intevention. It could well be worse as a direct result of the intervention.
It is part of the evolution of culture that such issues are faced-off and solved with the resourced of that society - not applied from without.
It is an act of supreme hubris for us to imagine that we can teach the Libyans anything today that they have not learned from us in the last milenium. It seems to me that they probably think they have a thing or two to teach us! Given that gulf of cultural values, it is best to watch [and possibly be deeply sadden by] the inevitable horrors without getting bitten in a fight of a civil war nature, and alienating the Libyan population more than isolationism obviously would to some degree.
When there is a new government there, albeit it may be years hence, then that is the time to make offical contacts at a diplomatic level.
This does not rule out making contacts with the potential replacement regimes, but the selection and installation of the next Libyan regime is a matter for Libya and her population, and certainly not for Europeans or Americans.
Sincerely, George
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by JeremyB
All good points George however I am feeling a bit more positive about this - free trade seems to be a common goal of the rebels and Europeans and on balance the old regime together with Europe/US propping it up is looking a bit out of place in the modern world. I can't help feeling the freedom to do business without overly oppressive government is the lifeblood of humanity and civilization, has been for a really long time and knows no religious/cultural divides.
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Dear Jeremy,
As it is already happening, I would be genuinely delighted to be shown as being too pessimistic. Time will tell.
ATB from George
As it is already happening, I would be genuinely delighted to be shown as being too pessimistic. Time will tell.
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by Skip
Somebody should colonize them and control their oil.
The Libyan people would be better off and so would the rest of us.
And word would get around the rest of the region, and maybe the other bad actors would straighten out.
Obama is content to bring up the rear. The European leadership should capitalize on his diffidence. Keep what you need and sell the rest on the market.
The Libyan people would be better off and so would the rest of us.
And word would get around the rest of the region, and maybe the other bad actors would straighten out.
Obama is content to bring up the rear. The European leadership should capitalize on his diffidence. Keep what you need and sell the rest on the market.
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Dear Skip,
Would you mind letting me in which country you are based?
It helps to contextualise such a comment as yours, which seems to advocate old fashioned Imperialism. In the United Kingdom this was already in its death rattle in 1947 with the granting of independence to India.
ATB from George
PS: Looking at your profile I would venture that AR equates to Arizona, which is a nice safe distance from Libya!
Would you mind letting me in which country you are based?
It helps to contextualise such a comment as yours, which seems to advocate old fashioned Imperialism. In the United Kingdom this was already in its death rattle in 1947 with the granting of independence to India.
ATB from George
PS: Looking at your profile I would venture that AR equates to Arizona, which is a nice safe distance from Libya!
Posted on: 19 March 2011 by JeremyB
George, Skip is from Arkansas, a state of independent thinkers.
Skip, you've got some great kit, I have to say. Bet it sounds fantastic.
Skip, you've got some great kit, I have to say. Bet it sounds fantastic.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by backfromoz
Hang on Skip,
If history serves me right Briatin France etc etc did colonise these countries many years ago.
Was it better for us YES.
Is it now better for them ?????? HHMMMMMMM
Swap colonial powers for Despotic rulers and Royal Family power bases with a bizarre broken up religion to add to the mess.
It all religiously goes back 1600 years.
In Aus i met many who left Egypt and Lebanon due to religious and racial persecution in the 1950's, 60's 70' and 80's.
Remember Lebanon was the Middle East Riviera till the 60's/70's.
I say move away from OIL then the middle east will only have Sand to sell.
David
If history serves me right Briatin France etc etc did colonise these countries many years ago.
Was it better for us YES.
Is it now better for them ?????? HHMMMMMMM
Swap colonial powers for Despotic rulers and Royal Family power bases with a bizarre broken up religion to add to the mess.
It all religiously goes back 1600 years.
In Aus i met many who left Egypt and Lebanon due to religious and racial persecution in the 1950's, 60's 70' and 80's.
Remember Lebanon was the Middle East Riviera till the 60's/70's.
I say move away from OIL then the middle east will only have Sand to sell.
David
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by BigH47
Don't forget history is only a couple of hundred years old where skip comes from, and then it only applies to one continent.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by backfromoz
I always thought american history and civilisation was thousands of years old!
European History in America is about 400 years old i thought.
Civilisation though has yet to get to the US.
David
European History in America is about 400 years old i thought.
Civilisation though has yet to get to the US.
David
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Don Atkinson
If anybody thinks any of this affair in Libya (or anywhere else for that matter) is motivated other than by self-interested - think again.
And yes, the sonner we figure out have to enjoy life without the need for oil (or other limited resources), the better. Until then, be prepared to fight (when jaw-jaw breaks down) or be prepared to starve.
Cheers
Don
And yes, the sonner we figure out have to enjoy life without the need for oil (or other limited resources), the better. Until then, be prepared to fight (when jaw-jaw breaks down) or be prepared to starve.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Don Atkinson
I presume that the United Nations fully covers the cost of these UN sanctioned operations and that France, the UK, USA, Qatar and the UAE will all be hansomely rewarded for their efforts and sacrifice.
Cheers
Don
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by backfromoz
Don,
I believe that you are micturating in to the breeze.
David
I believe that you are micturating in to the breeze.
David
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by George Fredrik
I had to look that up! This place is an education in itself!
ATB from George
ATB from George
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Haim Ronen
I wonder if Muammar Gaddafi has second thoughts about Libya's voluntary disarmament of WMD which took place in 2004. Would everyone be still lined up today to attack him if he had kept all those potent weapons?
These recent events are unfortunately a great incentive for Iran to continue developing its nuclear program which is seen by them as a safeguard against intimidations and threats coming from the West.
These recent events are unfortunately a great incentive for Iran to continue developing its nuclear program which is seen by them as a safeguard against intimidations and threats coming from the West.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by backfromoz
One of the joys of the English language is that there is more than one word to cover a topic.
This is due to the fact that English is a corruption of Latin, Greek, German and French with a touch of gaelic thrown in for good measure.
David
This is due to the fact that English is a corruption of Latin, Greek, German and French with a touch of gaelic thrown in for good measure.
David
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Jono 13
The real winner is the defence industry.
Jono
Jono
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by backfromoz:
Don,
I believe that you are micturating in to the breeze.
David
I agree. I was probably taking the proverbial.....I believe that you are micturating in to the breeze.
David
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by David Scott
"This is due to the fact that English is a corruption of Latin, Greek, German and French with a touch of gaelic thrown in for good measure."
To be pedantic: English is derived from Western Germanic, but is no more a corruption of it than German or Dutch. Most borrowings from Latin and Greek, being relatively recent, and primarily a part of the mainstream written language are still in their original (anglicised) form and so can't be described as corruptions either. Some of the words borrowed from Anglo Norman have perhaps altered more and might conceivably be so described but then again, it's not a terribly long way from mouton to mutton, so I'm not so sure. There's very little borrowing from Gaelic IIRC and the examples I can think of also seem more like anglicised forms than corruptions in the proper sense.
Pedantry ends.
To be pedantic: English is derived from Western Germanic, but is no more a corruption of it than German or Dutch. Most borrowings from Latin and Greek, being relatively recent, and primarily a part of the mainstream written language are still in their original (anglicised) form and so can't be described as corruptions either. Some of the words borrowed from Anglo Norman have perhaps altered more and might conceivably be so described but then again, it's not a terribly long way from mouton to mutton, so I'm not so sure. There's very little borrowing from Gaelic IIRC and the examples I can think of also seem more like anglicised forms than corruptions in the proper sense.
Pedantry ends.
Posted on: 20 March 2011 by George Fredrik
I suppose pedants really enjoy showing their learning, and most non-pedants are at least as well educated, but secure enough not to want to make a public display of it.
I read a corruption as meaning, in the sense used above at least, a melting together of ... Surely that would be a normal enough understanding. 14 K gold is a corruption of gold with other metals and so on ... As employed above, a metaphoric usage certainly, but clear in its intention, not ambiguous at all.
Now let's get back onto the rather serious issue of Libya, which does have the potential to be a continuing real thorn in our sides for years to come as things are going.
ATB from George
I read a corruption as meaning, in the sense used above at least, a melting together of ... Surely that would be a normal enough understanding. 14 K gold is a corruption of gold with other metals and so on ... As employed above, a metaphoric usage certainly, but clear in its intention, not ambiguous at all.
Now let's get back onto the rather serious issue of Libya, which does have the potential to be a continuing real thorn in our sides for years to come as things are going.
ATB from George
Posted on: 21 March 2011 by David Scott
George,
Whatever you read 'a corruption' as meaning, in this context there is something it actually means. If I read ff in a musical score as meaning 'fairly fluently' I would be wrong. If you pointed that out I would be slightly better off. It wouldn't be terribly important just as my post wasn't terribly important, but then, no matter how serious the situation in Libya gets, we might as well discuss chewing gum here, for all the difference it'll make.
Anyone who doesn't like pedantry - which wouldn't normally include you, I wouldn't have thought - should have been alerted by the first phrase of my post and read no further.
Whatever you read 'a corruption' as meaning, in this context there is something it actually means. If I read ff in a musical score as meaning 'fairly fluently' I would be wrong. If you pointed that out I would be slightly better off. It wouldn't be terribly important just as my post wasn't terribly important, but then, no matter how serious the situation in Libya gets, we might as well discuss chewing gum here, for all the difference it'll make.
Anyone who doesn't like pedantry - which wouldn't normally include you, I wouldn't have thought - should have been alerted by the first phrase of my post and read no further.
Posted on: 21 March 2011 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by David Scott:
George,
Anyone who doesn't like pedantry - which wouldn't normally include you, I wouldn't have thought - should have been alerted by the first phrase of my post and read no further.
I think you'll find it was the second part of your post - but lets not be too pedantic.......the first part of your post was a quotation which gave no insight as to what was about to follow. The first phrase of the second part of your post did.Anyone who doesn't like pedantry - which wouldn't normally include you, I wouldn't have thought - should have been alerted by the first phrase of my post and read no further.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 21 March 2011 by David Scott
Don,
Quite right. Correction accepted. I feel marginally improved.
David
Quite right. Correction accepted. I feel marginally improved.
David
Posted on: 21 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Originally Posted by David Scott:
George,
Whatever you read 'a corruption' as meaning, in this context there is something it actually means. If I read ff in a musical score as meaning 'fairly fluently' I would be wrong. If you pointed that out I would be slightly better off. It wouldn't be terribly important just as my post wasn't terribly important, but then, no matter how serious the situation in Libya gets, we might as well discuss chewing gum here, for all the difference it'll make.
Anyone who doesn't like pedantry - which wouldn't normally include you, I wouldn't have thought - should have been alerted by the first phrase of my post and read no further.
Dear Dave,Whatever you read 'a corruption' as meaning, in this context there is something it actually means. If I read ff in a musical score as meaning 'fairly fluently' I would be wrong. If you pointed that out I would be slightly better off. It wouldn't be terribly important just as my post wasn't terribly important, but then, no matter how serious the situation in Libya gets, we might as well discuss chewing gum here, for all the difference it'll make.
Anyone who doesn't like pedantry - which wouldn't normally include you, I wouldn't have thought - should have been alerted by the first phrase of my post and read no further.
Sometimes people write in metaphor, which is perfectly clear in its intended meaning. Only a numpty would fail to notice the metaphoric aspect, if they gave it a second thought.
Edited to the minumum possible to retain sense in the reply immediately below.
George