Shielded or Unshielded Ethernet Cable

The Virgin Hub does not carry the shield link, so its questionable if its worth changing.  Lots of for's & against's,  but for whats its worth IMO Cat7 can do no harm if its done right & in my experience there can be an SQ benefit.    

If you do want to go Cat7 the answer is a small unmanaged switch such as Cisco or Netgear (etc)  & get a Cat7 for each of the 3 arms centred on the switch.

Also IMO few of the ISP hubs are real switches & are not good enough for audio,  adding a switch fixes the short comings. 

This is my set up - 

Thank you mike-b, that's what I suspected about the super hub 2 not being able to pass through the shield. I hadn't considered introducing a switch, although I could do without another device to plug in!

I must admit when ever I use shielded Ethernet cable and I don't leave floating, I ensure there is only a single bonded earth point, such as on a distribution patch panel or switch. This ensures there are no earth loops.

To do shielded Ethernet cable properly unless you leave floating is non trivial in my opinion and probably not that convenient for the average home environment.

Simon

Thank you Simon. It's getting a bit above my head now but can I understand your comments to mean it's probably best that I stick with what I've got (ie Cat6 utp)?

I can appreciate how people find this just too complicated, and so far I've not been able to come up with a simplified summary to guide people (if I can, Simon, would you be prepared to review it please?).  The problem is the myriad of options available to optimise for various conditions of use.  I may not be the best person to do it either: As a dyslexic I have a problem with worms.

The best advice I can give at the moment is listen to our resident Guru (S-in-S).  I know enough to know that he really knows what he's talking about, and we're luck that he's so willing to share his knowlege.

+1 if you are willing to produce some form of guideline

(if you need a hand, I'm up for it)

- shame Naim haven't done it already. 

Linn have a reasonably good set of stuff in LinnDocs;  problem is they have it done the "Linn way" & it appears to me the Linn'ites tend to follow more doggedly than do the rebellious Naim'ite clans.     

-1 for too much techno babble

= KISS

= Pictures (schematics & hieroglyphics) say a thousand words

Huge, happy to help out if I can.

Mike I prefer the simpler KIS 

Simon

Ooh S-Shucks. .

Huge - good call. The site does lack the simple infrastructure setup diagrams that Linn explain so well. The problem with a guide is keeping it simple and not putting people off - ferrites, shielded cables (if done properly and if really needed in a domestic environment) and other 'enhancements' are just icing on the cake once a good, reliable network infrastructure is in place. It's probably worth mentioning best practice of not sticking routers, wireless access points all in with the audio gear if possible. 

I'm all for the KISS approach and Mikes diagram above should satisfy a large percentage of the 'getting into streaming category'  who already have a typical broadband / router setup. 

This might be a better style of diagram - square blocks with a simple description joined with non-specific wires. 

IMO this must be kept simple - once the new peeps get the basic set up right, then over time they can then  (or choose not to) get into the ying/yang (to some its all too scary) of UTP & S/FTP, unmanaged switches vs managed,  routers/modems/firewalls/hubs etc. 

As a follow up a separate paper on the techo stuff would be better. 

That's excellent Mike. 

+1 Mike - I've had this setup for over two years - the switch made a significant difference. My cable provider is Virgin but I prefer to run the Superhub as a modem only connected to an AirPort Extreme. 

Tog

Hi Mike ... Looks great 

Ive got my NAS and ND5 XS connected directly into the Apple Timecapsule (router) - and Sky HD box also directly into the 3rd last remaining Ethernet port on the Apple TC.

I'm just interested to know if there is any sonic reason to use a switch as per your diagram or whether it's about the number of ports you have available on the router itself

The switch isolates the Hifi from other network traffic. Added to that, if the router conks out, the system will keep working, albeit it won't be connected to the internet. If the system is a distance from the router, you need only one long wire to the switch, then short wires from the switch to the server and streamer. A switch is the way to go.

I have a hardwired house and I already have a big (24 port) switch connected to my router. 

I run all my data through the same switch, including music data between my NAS, HDX and Sonos boxes in various locations in the house.

It all seems to work well-enough but is my set-up the normal one or would you expect to see a separate, dedicated switch for music data? 

If I should really have a separate switch for music, should it be plugged directly into the router or daisy-chained to the main switch? 

I have heard that you should normally daisy-chain multiple switches but this sounds counter-productive if you're trying to isolate one lot of data from another.  On the other hand, all the data goes from the switch(es) to the main gateway thing that then distributes it through the house, so maybe daisy-chaining the switches doesn't matter.   

I have never understood the reason for separate switches ..... so I've just phoned Steve Hopkins in the Naim Technical Department for a definitive answer 

Steve says that the only reason to add a switch is if you don't have enough existing ports on your router to connect everything - there is absolutely no sonic benefit separating the hifi from anything else attached to the router/switch. Which is what I always suspected and I've got everything attached to my Apple Timecapsule.

Furthermore, he uses cheapo Cat 5 Ethernet for everything - not Cat 6, 7 or the latest flavour of the month.

Whilst not wanting to decry anyone for using 'esoteric' cables etc, it does make me wonder about the children's story about the 'Emperors Clothes'  ....... or am I genuinely missing something, along with Naim too

In my experience some ISP supplied modem/routers or "hubs" are not up to the job. 

I had my BT hub set up as a router between NAS & NDX having been assured by BT it was 100% OK. But it overheated & the wireless stopped altogether after about 2.5 hours playing NAS sourced music.  It simply was not able to handle the traffic. 

My solution was to add a switch designed for such work between NAS & NDX & a branch to the hub to supply iRadio & the nStream wireless traffic - it worked perfectly & the improvement in SQ was VERY obvious.  

Why the improved SQ ??? simple - the BT hub was not able to handle the traffic & the switch was.

So to that point I disagree with Steve

The other benefit is I have Cat7 (S/FTP) ethernet & the BT hub (& other ISP routers) does not have the ability to connect the cable shields, so having such an arrangement does not give much logic for using Cat7.  The Netgear GS & similar switches have metal shrouded ports & do cross connect shields resulting in a single cross connected shield network.  - & Naim's Phil Harris has an old forum note on just that.

So just because Steve (top man that he is - though he is customer support rather than 'technical') says these things make no difference, those of us who have bought fancy leads are therefore deaf or deluded? You can be jolly certain that if Naim made £500 Ethernet cables they would recommend them and everyone would suddenly change their tune place their orders.

Mike-B ...... certainly sounds as if it makes an improvement in your particular circumstances

Hungryhalibut ..... No one is suggesting that anyone is 'deaf or deluded' but I'm sure you will agree that there is a lot of 'snake oil' and 'open to suggestion' in this hifi game. In fact there is a current live thread about such matters  The only point I raised is that the maker of the equipment (i.e. Naim) doesn't subscribe to the notion of separate switches and fancy cables making a jot of difference to the sound. They may or may not be correct, but I would have thought with all their development expertise, that from a customer service perspective they would be giving informed guidance that we can trust.

I think it's more that if they agreed that a certain third party product or way of doing things was a good idea, it becomes accepted as a truth. If people want to tweak that's up to them, but Naim are most unlikely to 'approve' it.

Chord advocate Ethernet over mains on their website, whereas most agree it's a bad idea. These companies don't want to give the impression that tweaking is necessary to get the best from their products.

Interesting. Chord as in Chord Company cables or Chord Electronics? The HomePlug Alliance probably think it's a good idea as well.

Dave

Thanks for all the replies. To shield or not shield, that is the question. We've established the VM Super Hub 2 does not have metal shrouded ports and cannot pass a shield through. Can someone explain in simple plain English (if possible) why this matters and why this should mean I should avoid shielded ethernet cable?

The only proper test you can do when comparing different cables is blind listening tests. You should be able to pick out the one you prefer every time.

Try this - from Naim

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...19#16631269506848719

This is the most impenetrable part to me: what does this mean, "pass a shield through" ?? Why should the shield of different cables be connected ? Shouldn't they simply be earthed properly at only one place, namely usually the patch panel (that means you need one) ?

And there has been talks about leaving the shield "floating", and that it could potentially even be sonically better (Simon was involved, I think... well he always is !).

At least here it sounds good ! Maybe I should listen to Empirical.

Unfortunately, there will be a delay of a few days before I can start (due to after effects of local anaesthetic).

I propose to set up an independant web site that can be linked, rather than use the forum itself.

My intended approach is to give a basic network diagram, then illustrate the various upgrade routes, summarising what is needed, and as far as is known why they work.  Where there is controversial information this will be highlighted as such.

For those who have the problem, I'll also cover specific techniques to deal with RFI from the perspective of mains and cables, but also pointing out that if you don't have this specific problem you don't need a solution!

I'll consider covering mains DC offset.