Is Naim dying?

Same for me - apart from the sheep (though I can see about 50 in the field next door as I type).

I am happier with my system and listen to more music via my Superuniti and QOBUZ now than I ever did with my 8 box top end olive system. Still keeping my LP12 and vinyl to satisfy my inner geek so the best of both worlds at a fraction of the cost 

Hi Simon - I'm going to call a "Geek alert" on you - lol!

While you may have been playing with streaming in the late 90's, it has only really become a commercially viable market that is still expanding amongst we non-tech and semi-tech folks.  For example, look at the number of "formats" (forgive me if that is not the correct word) out there - both from the storage aspect (lossy & non-lossy) as well as delivery (UPnP, etc.)  I just get the impression that it is a technology that is still "finding its way" in many regards.  When did Naim release their first streamer?  It can't be too long ago.

You are perhaps the most knowledgeable techie on this forum, or if not, in the top 3 or 4, and I am sure you see this stuff before many of us do.  And play with it as well.  So to we "bottom feeders" it is still new, and I think as a commercial entity there is still some dust to settle. For example, buying non-lossy formats on the main commercial entities (Amazon & iTunes) is not really even an option yet..

Look at flat panel TVs.  In the late 90's they were coming into the market, and people were paying n thousands for them.  I was in a a Wal-Mart the other night, and they had a 50" Emerson for $448 - incredible. The technology has become ubiquitous.  And cheaper. I think streaming still has a way to go, especially in the "high end" market - (not talking about iPods and mp3 players - that seems pretty much a settled deal.)

You are correct inasmuch as computer based listening has become quite normative for many; perhaps lossless and higher end streaming would better clarify my statement.

Now I'll step back and let you show where I am wrong with your tech savvy knowledge!

I'm quite sure there's room for another major jump in the technology that lets us listen to high quality music free from physical media.  I just didn't want to wait for it.  Otherwise I'd still be waiting, instead of listening!

I don't see Naim being too far behind the curve.  When I go into my local hi fi shop, I see a lot of offerings, including Naim, that are (still) looking like boxes with wires going in and coming out, to be set upon a rack.  The Devialet is quite different.  There aren't too many brands now-a-days where you CAN amass the box count that you can with Naim, but Naim also offer one-box solutions so they can compete with that market too.

As appropriate as ever:  "If you get confused listen to the music play."

As far as I can see, Naim are doing jolly well thank you. They've expanded their business nicely over the last few years so they're obviously responding to the market. The fact that us anoraks (and, let's face it, folk who inhabit these sorts of forums generally are) might like to see a proliferation of abundant tweakery that we can agonise about endlessly is neither here nor there.

In the many years I've been a member of this forum I've seen it wax and wane as folk drop in and out, and old fogeys moaning on about the shift away from what they consider the "golden age" of hi-fi. I really can't imagine the situation being any different in ten years' time. C'est la vie.

This made my day

And for the question, i have not met anybody who owns naim exquipment in person of any age. But it somehow has found it's way to my living room trough various demo's over a year ago, so it can't be dead right?

Maybe it's the whole high end audio which is becoming more of a niche market with all the megastores and mini all-in-one systems around.

With respect, this is completely wrong. A Sonos ZP80 streamer, hardly ground-breaking when first released the best part of 10 years ago, can still perform streaming duties and operates the best user interface available with all the desirable online services. This is because it was well designed at the time from software, hardware and connectivity perspectives. The technology is already mature. Only bad design and implementation keep any interest alive.

Naturally computers could do this long before such dedicated streamers for consumers and subsequently streaming can take place perfectly well on almost disposable devices such as a Raspberry Pi.

Most of the so-called development in streaming is either people who don't understand it talking about what they need or a pointless search for alchemy which fails to accept that the master recording is......the master. Some sideline chat about RFI but that is it. The rest is just sales and marketing.

When you talk about the high-end market, the thing to realise here is that the streamer module on its own has little commercial value. The high-end market is perceived not real. Hence one reason why the streamer module is bundled with a DAC, a pre-amp and even a power-amp. On its own, it has little value.

Yes, was told this too. Not from HQ but in a shop. Loss of credibility.

A Sonos ZP80 can be had for £100 on eBay. A Raspberry Pi is £35. What is better about Naim are the analogue ouput stages on the source components and the amplification.

There are no major improvements to be had in streaming alone (not including DAC, analogue output stage or beyond) until master recordings improve.

Never forget the valuable lessons we learnt from those puck rubber re-plumping discussions : )

Debs

Interesting thread...

Some on this forum also claim that Naim streamers are preferable as the streaming electronics are near to the DAC,  which provides an SQ advantage due to the short signal path (like in Naim CD players), even though that these streamers have digital outs for use of off-board DACs (as do Naim CD players).

Like you, I believe a modular and miniture approach would enable Naim serve future generations (as well as the current generation).

A good exmaple of this is what Naim have done to the integrated amps.

Jude

Reminds me of two quotes, one apocryphal and one not.

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

I'll bet you $20 (unadjusted for inflation) that meaningful improvements will be made to the UPnP protocol (or it will be supplanted) in the next 5 years.

They are trying to go mass-market (Muso) and middle-market (Dac-V1 / Nap 100, Qute etc). I think they fully realise the commercial limitations of the niche middle to high-end multi-box market. The CEO spoke with admiration of Sonos a few years ago. He is the commercial leader after all - the shareholders would complain if all he did was keep a few thousand old guard customers happy and growth flat.

This brings us full circle to the OP's point. Naim, the commercial enterprise, is not dying and may not have been an attractive take-over target for Focal if it were in complete distress. Naim, the hi-fi anorak kit-fest may be dying. The latter can survive but to do so I feel they need to produce smaller and better modular products.

For a start, reinvent the entire pre-amp line along the lines of the Dac-V1. What I am talking about here is a Dac-V1 with 252 sound quality and DR in a shoebox. One analogue input. Obviously costing more than a DAC-V1. No separate PSU necessary. People can then pick their streamer / computer of choice. Yes, it puts the multiple big-box and many PSU set-up revenue at risk but who really wants that??

Yes, such a development may annoy those heavily invested in multi-box solutions and high-end streamers but I think the ongoing lack of action, which I suspect is the result of the fear of alienating these customers, is not keeping some other customers engaged.

Not really. The point on the limitation imposed by the master recording reminds me of one well-known quote:

'You cannot polish a ....'

The fundamentals of streaming over UPnP are wrong. The music index should be maintained onboard the streamer as it is with Sonos. UPnP was bettered by Sonos 10 years ago (and before that in various computer audio incarnations). As soon as you become reliant on a network and third-party devices to traverse a library you become exposed to a variety of issues beyond your control.

Whilst I agree Naim might be better off consigning the multiple-box systems to history, what we don't know is how well these old designs still sell. From a business perspective, if there's money to be made then it makes sense to keep manufacturing these, but with an eye on future designs.

Naim know their market, we can only make educated guesses.

Shed 7 in Area 51, there's also a pile of "Computer audio course for grumpy gits" flyers. While you are there grab a few so we can help the dying forum at least die with an "enlightened" membership 

As things stand right now, the separate boxes do sound better, and I suspect there is an engineering reason for it. But I feel it is precisely that little extra in quality and refinement achieved that keep the Naim brand where it is.

My view is that Naim should not abandon multiple-box systems. 

Hi-End has always been niche and from what I gather from local dealers business is not at all bad.

Where I do think Naim could improve is in streamlining the large overlap of features they are currently offering. (Reminds me of Apple just before Jobs Version 2).

Whether the DAC makes it into the pre or not, is to be decided (I have gone both sides on this matter). But the number of PSUs, Pre-Amps, Streamers and DAC enabled devices (some of which requiring 2 PSUs) that are on offer and need to be supported (keeping customers educated) seems way too large, and I suspect must be a large burden on a company the size of Naim.

P.S. 

The title of this thread would be much better as "the state of the union" or such.

We're pretty much in violent agreement.  If UPnP was supplanted by the Sonos protocol, or similar, I am sure I'd not be disappointed (other than having invested in a UPnP server; at my own risk of course!).  I want Naim quality and Sonos simplicity and reliability . . . . maybe. 

Naim reminds me a bit of Leica cameras (which I shoot with). For 50 some years they pretty much served up one model with minor improvements along the way. And then digital came along and it too them some time to catch up, but when they did they did it right (imo though not others - much like Naim!). And what I Ioved is that I could use all of my legacy lenses, much like my UQ/DAC V1 I have connected to a 30 some year old rebuilt NAP 110. Sure, the screen on the M9 is way outdated (for what was a $6K body on release) but the image quality made up for it. And yes they have their quirks such as occasionally having to reset by removing the battery, etc which I suffer through because the image quality is great. And I actually prefer the sensor of the older M9 (CCD) to the newer M (CMOS) despite the fact that the new one is supposed to be 'better.' 

And now Leica of course offer a whole range of digital products from p&s to high end medium format ($22K for just the body).

Anyway, an apt analogy in my mind at least. And I do think the future of Naim lie in the resurrection of the half width boxes. 

There remains a large customer base for high end audio as illustrated by the number of products still  in the market. 

Naim can command a decent share of this market because of it's signature sound which is so engaging that nothing else will do for many including me; superb build quality and being able to get older equipment serviced by Naim to original spec many years after it has ceased production.

You must have been mistaken. That was a close demonstration for  private press only and the release date is yet unknown. Somehow it was leaked and found its way onto the Net. Really looking forward to seeing  it at the next Hifi show. Who needs mEw-so or hEwgo?

If some of the forum members were to pony up for a complete 'statement' system and then post their experience of installation,initial response and subsequent running in commentary - I would think this forum would be on fire and ablaze with interest !

Dying no, evolving yes.

i thought only living beings have to face the final reality.

But Naim ( as a brand ) lives on because :-

a. we are very enamoured of the naim sound - the famous Naim PRAT

b. we love showing off Naim gear in its myriad avatars aka shoe boxes.

I must admit i have 2. The Naim CD5XS and the Naim Nait 5i. This selling of boxes makes a statement on the forum or elsewhere but there is a paradox in this.

The more the boxes there are, the more complicated things get and at the end of it all one realizes that after having spent all the money.. there is still something lacking..... simplicity... of sound.. and equipment.

Simplicity of sound and equipment is something that could be found in the vintage eras say about 30 to 15 years ago.

The advent of the computer has slowly changed the way people want to listen to their sound.. streaming, digitization, portability, sleek looks etc..

The computer also changed the way music is distributed ( or intended to be distributed these days ) leading to the inevitable demise of the LP / cassette and now slowly the CD.

Modern fast paced life means that folks only want to listen to the music and not to the subtleness of it ( thats a personal choice .. nothing anyone can do about it ) and any brand including Naim has to cater to this market or perish.

The key will be to retain the Naim sound in doing so and for Naim to realize that there will be always a market for the Naim PRAT ... its only the way sound is passed around that will change.

regards

mpw

Is Naim dying? HA!

This thread is already three pages long! These forums are among the most active manufacturer forums in all the Internet, that is no small feat. All forums ebb and flow, what is happening here is only natural. The Naim forums even survived a rather painful redesign, I've seen less kill other forums.

I'd say Naim and its loyal customer base will be just fine for some time yet.

I'll repeat myself and say again... the fact that Naim allows an open discussion on their own forum, as to whether "Naim is dying" is admirable and speaks to their confidence and integrity and tells me they'll be around for many years to come. Attempt to have anything close to this kind of critical discussion on the Harbeth user group ( Love and own 30.1's ) and risk the wrath of Alan Shaw and a dozen or so of his regular posters who worship the ground he walks on. Of course this all IMHO. Baaaaa...