Audio Network Config Discussion Continued

cool - speak later

Is the intent here to collaborate on a networking guide with a specific bias towards getting the best out of Naim Audio's streamer family? It's a very worthwhile goal, but difficult to achieve in my opinion given the diversity of network topologies and equipment out in the wild. The question is whether to attempt to educate the end user to an extent that they will be able to design and implement a solution that meets their needs or propose a set of recipes that can be implemented without any real understanding of the technology involved.

Happy to help QA anything. My detailed networking knowledge is very rusty compared to Simon's, but I often have to 'sell' technical concepts to a non-technical audience so have some relevant expertise.

Dave.

The intent is a to make a guide that can do both, well to a degree at least.

It will provide three simple layout diagrams, each with an outline of the reasons why it's an improvement on the previous one.

I also intend to provide a simplified 'how to' on amelioration of RFI and some notes on mains issues.  These will give a very broad outline of the technical reasons.

All the explanations will be in a qualitative manner.

OK, I've just finished the photography as well.

Another re-read of the content and I'll be set.

Here's a link to a PDF version out for review.

https://docs.google.com/file/d...rl1ykVDNkQks0eUJ6aVU

(I think it works OK, Google drive behaves differently on the author's account than to guests / others).

All comments welcome, even if it's "Completely wrong - This is what you should have done..."

Excellent,  simple & no techo-babble

I would be concerned about only listing Cat5 & why some Cat5 & other 5e - apart from bandwidth,  no real difference but it might add unhelpful confusion factor.  Maybe better to list all the Cat's that are UTP & explain the differences & benefits.(why not go straight to Cat6 & forget Cat5 ???)

Not so sure about a ferrite at each end of the individual ethernet sections. Reading the pro cmpy papers from those that do advocate ferrite on ethernet seem to put just one at the product devise end & not the switch/patch.   

Do we need a drawing of an STP network & show the UTP dis-connector in that section

Do we need the section on a DC filter,  as you know I am a fan & user of these filters,  but IMO it does not fit in with this LAN subject  (frightens the horses) 

Thanks Mike.

Yes I do think a short note explaining that it's "Cat5 or anything above" would be a good idea.

Ferrites on both ends - not needed for properly screened network devices, bit where a cheap unscreened device is in use this can inject RFI.  I'm not entirely sure how effective they'll be here, but I'd rather advise the conservative route than risk people rubbishing the whole thing just because they didn't use 5 more ferrites.

The STP diagrams - Yes there's a <ToDo:> note for me to add them.  I think I'll do this as an appendix to avoid even more frightened horses

The DC Filter - I think I'd like to keep it as it is relevant from the interference perspective (the large electrolytics are actually quite good RFI filters as well), but yes again move to an appendix to isolate it from the mainstream info..

Thoughts on the appendix option?  Appendicitis perhaps? Appendectomy needed?

Revised version

https://docs.google.com/file/d...rl1ykajNJZU56ZnZDaGM

Huge

Very good.

My comments:

1) Perhaps use device symbols - such that you have used for the NAS and PCs  for the broadband router and switch rather than network diagrams symbols - as drawn using network diagram symbols the router is incorrect.

2)You show a picture of a transmitter tower for RFI. I think this might perpetuate the common mis understanding that RFI is linked to radio transmitters! For the most part this is not the main cause of RFI that we have in our homes. So you could show a collage photo of LED lighting, dimmer switch, solar panels, PLA etc and a 'scope picture of HF hash perhaps on a mains sine wave??

3)Finally you show Cat 5 cable - I think for 10/100Mbitps line speeds current wisdom is to recommend 5e as a minimum, and usually aligns to what is generally available.

Good guide.

Simon

Simon,

1  Yes, got the wrong router type ('Broadband Router' rather than 'Router + Broadband ADSL TA').  The other problem is that I don't have suitable diagrammatic representations that can distinguish a router from a switch.

        I'll have to have a good think to find a workable solution for this.

2  Yes, it's just what I could take a pic of (to avoid copyright issues I take the pics myself, and also I just like that pic!).  OK then, I'll try collecting suitable objects.  I do have a pic of a washing machine control panel (but that's just boring, not in the least artistic or photogenic!).

3  Yes agreed.

Hi Huge -  my t'up pence worth

I’m concerned you have too much detail in the STP section with all the diagrams. Maybe a single diagram to show the principle of UTP isolation with the right text would be less (is more)  

Re the “right angled” adaptor – what I got hold of are as rare as rocking horse pooh. They seem to be exclusive to or are only sold by Lindy in UK.

I would advise to say …. broken by an unshielded coupler to join two lengths of STP, or connect the STP cable to the earthed (grounded) device with an unshielded female to male adaptor. …..

There is a risk with all adaptors as some are crossover devices, so do you say something on that.

Also need to use either "screened" or "shielded" words,  not both,  I would prefer shielded as thats what the ethernet industry uses.   

The photos of STP cables do not clearly show the main identifying RJ/E-45 connecting shield around the plug end.  

Finally I wonder what Naim are gonna say about this & if they are happy to allow it to go out via the forum. 

I will get a whip round organised after you get finished.

Meanwhile I'm out for the day - watching F1 on a huge TV with audio via some megabuck Linn amps & speakers.     

Huge, I had something in mind last evening,  but grape juice from Stellenbosch caused memory loss. 

In the RFI section maybe to call it RFI & EMI

We also have (maybe more problematic than RFI with UTP cables) alien crosstalk - the induction of noise from adjacent cables.  Alternating current in power cables produces electromagnetic fields around the cable & can induce a current flow in adjacent Ethernet cables.   

nice doc Huge, I am interested in this topic ... going to study your doc now

Ah, the Stellenbosch Floral Zone!  Chenin Blank, or Zinfandel by any chance?

The RFI / EMI point is a good call to include in passing.

Not so sure about specifically mentioning 'alien cross-talk', I think that's too technical an argument for this discussion.  A suggestion about following general good cabling practice (including not having close parallel cables etc.) is worth including.

Pinotage from Simonsig. 

D'oh,  I was thinking Pinotage and wrote Zinfandel, Zinfandel is California of course (not grown in SA to the best of my knowledge).

Zinfandel is produced in SA,  but nowhere as prolific as California or Italy were its called Primitivo. 

Its not an easy wine to produce as it requires special harvest techniques, the grape bunches ripen unevenly; some grapes on the bunch can be mature, some raisined & others still green.  This adds significant production costs & results in high retail prices over other wines.  

Mike, interesting, I didn't know that.

Huge, regarding EMI/RFI well of course the effect of coupling is always as EMI, and it is the higher radio frequency elements say above 100kHz that are typically referred to RFI.

 so interference could be categorised a low frequency such as in earth loops, ultrasonic and RF... Possibly.. I suspect over cooking it though.. So perhaps something like " RFI can be caused by electric or magnetic coupling from sources producing energy at radio type frequencies"?

Huge, great guide 

Just one query which may not be particularly be relevant is in relation to the length of Ethernet cables and whether it makes any difference. If several items of kit (routers, switches, NAS, streamer etc) are located close to each other, is it okay to use short Ethernet cables (e.g. 0.25m) rather than coiling up a standard length patch cord or does this cause issues with particularly short lengths of Ethernet? I seem to recall reading somewhere that short Ethernet cables were not recommended but I can't understand why. As a layperson, to me shorter cables are neater and I would thought less likely to be effected by RFI but I'm certainly no expert in this area and it might be more problematic.

Some of my kit is close to each other and so it seems logical to reduce the amount of surplus 'coiled' cable if possible but not at the expense of causing issues with the system. Presumably if short is okay, I still need ferrite chokes at each end of the Ethernet To reduce RFI/EMI or whatever 

Mr Frog, from a networking point of view short patch leads are completely fine. From an EMI point of view there is potentially the issue that the encoded carrier is received with more energy with a short lead rather than a long one, due to less losses in the cable. Also any common mode noise from the switch etc will have more energy at the receiving end with a shorter patch lead.

However I suspect the comparative difference in impact between different short lengths of patch lead, say <10m will be on the  subtle side if noticeable at all.

Thanks Simon

Based in that, I'll stick to my standard length ones and put loose coils on them tied with a cable tie if that's ok

thanks again

I use short cables as my player is located nearby the cabinet that houses NAS, switch & wireless hub.  The downside is it gets cramped up with a lot of mains & DC power cables.  

Because of this & the EMI issue Simon speaks of, it is the one reason I went with SPT (Cat7) (correctly grounded of course)

My early training & work in marine electrics required most all cable runs to be in close proximity, DC & AC with all sorts of volts & Hz, radio & radar & shielding (conduit, cable or mu metal) was mandatory as was ferrous (ferrite) clamping.  In those days - long before Ethernet had been invented - it was not so well categorised, but I now know it as EMI & RFI & the Ethernet related word alien crosstalk.

This training kinda sticks in a person’s brain tool box & throughout my hifi journey, concern for this type of interference has remained.  All my mains cables are shielded as are the Ethernets, that way I sleep easy & try as I might, I can’t hear anything negative.  Personally whist short lengths of Ethernet might have a theoretical potential problem, in practice in home hifi its irrelevant.  

Many thanks for going to this effort. I think it's an excellent document.

Maybe Naim forum administrators can add the doc to the FAQ section as this will definitely help both newcomers and existing streamer users.

Well done!