Salmond and Darling

'Fullfact' neither full nor fact - largely a rehash of the BBC article from 2013 entitled 'Who has a right to Scotland's North Sea Oil?'.

G

Graeme

Found the article, I suspect you know very well it's not called "Who has a right to Scotland's North Sea Oil"

The articles is dated 2013 so not up to date, but states.

No discussion has yet taken place between the UK and Scottish governments on the detail of what would happen to oil revenues.

The Scotland Office said: "The UK government are not making contingency plans for losing the independence referendum. That includes how UK oil revenues might be divided afterwards."

You noticed....

We could pluck quotes to and fro to support both arguments ad infinitum so let's not go there. Plenty, more qualied than both of us (I suspect) have been speculating either way for months now.

It's not cut and dry is all I was pointing out.

G

You’re correct, it’s not cut and dry. But how on earth can the Scots be expected to decide how to vote if north sea oil/gas revenue and national debt allocation hasn’t yet been decided.

I suspect if independence goes ahead, negotiations will result in neither the Scots or the UK gaining a significant financial advantage over the other.

I think the moral philosophy argument is the main point of differentiation.The continual quest to be a bigger, stronger, richer society is ultimately unsustainable - and some see this vote as a way to recalibrate our world view.

G

I think the moral philosophy argument is the main point of differentiation.The continual quest to be a bigger, stronger, richer society is ultimately unsustainable - and some see this vote as a way to recalibrate our world view.

My initial thought was I agree with this sentiment, however technology has advanced so far over the last 10 years it has now started to improve the lot of the 3rd world. For example simple mobile phones are now enabling African fisherman and farmers to get better prices for their produce which leads to governments collecting more tax, all right they are corrupt, but in the long term there is the potential for things to get better. Fusion power will be viable well within the next 50 years.

Closer to home my ISP and Mobile charges have come down 50% over the last few years.

Guess I've wandered a bit off topic, so I better apologize, somewhat overawed with the music I'm listening to...

S

I had presummed that as a starting point, the oil revenues, national debt and a few other assets would be valued on a per-capita basis of the existing UK. Scotland and the rest of the Uk would then  discuss who wanted to buy /sell their share of such assets.

As indicated elsewhere, I'm surprised that the allocation of assets and debt didn't feature strongly in either debate broadcast outside of Scotland. Perhaps the subject was fully discussed and sorted out between the Yes and No-thanks parties during the debates that were only broadcast within Scotland ?

The subject of Scottish Independence was raised on this forum a few years back. At that time I proposed that the Scottish Islands, including Shetland, and also the Highlands, might like to have their own independence from Glasgow/Edinburgh.

I presume that Salmond would be equally keen to offer such people a fair referendum. Otherwise he would be a true hypocrit. Has this possiblity been put to him and if so, what was his response ?

Scotland should postpone their referendum of independence after the UK have decided about their future in the EU.

If the UK decide to stay, it would be a mistake for Scotland to leave the UK.

If the UK decide to leave, it would be a mistake for Scotland to stay in the UK.

Similar to most elections then. The 'have nots' may choose to vote for whoever they think will give them more, the belief in alchemy runs deep in many people.

I wonder at the continued notion that Scotland will be able to run an economy largely based on a sound financial services industry and oil. Unfortunately (in short) EU rules mean FS industries have to be based in the country where they do most biz, so England, NI and Wales then being the remainder of the UK and oil is a finite resource, the dependency on which is expected to be eroded by technology and need. Thank heavens Scotland looks pretty, so tourism should continue.

I'm confident that if the vote is 'Yes' and people are financially worse off, then England/Westminster will still get the blame.

I am very bored of the whole thing now and just wish they could get on with it and move on, whatever their decision (although, given my wife is Scottish, as is one of my closest friends and they know no-one at all in their vast Scottish circles who is voting 'Yes', I wonder where the 50/50 is coming from?)

As Jamie says, people are getting fed up with the whole farce.  Nobody is asking the English what they think but I have a fair idea what the response would be. I suspect most of them do not give a toss! The English would just get on with it just  as they did in the past. Salmon and his cronies won't be around when the true effects of the these changes take place. Future generations will have to bear the consequences.

For those not totally bored with the subject,  economist Paul Krugman wrote an interesting perspective in yesterday's New York Times.

Like I suggested, Alchemy as a belief concept is rife through the world.

Particularly among those in the nice cosy West and very much so in the Northern Europe part of the West. Somehow, many people have learned to believe they deserve and should get a nice comfortable life, without risk, just for being. Belief too, in the idea of '...that'll never happen here...' A nice idea apart from one inconvenient, but crucial, point. It's all bollox.

making a choice on the future of a country based upon welfare for non contributors to that country is surely doomed to failure.

One thing I think that will be of benefit to us in England is that the touchy topic of English representation via Parlaiment/Assembly will be on the agenda in the future. English issues being decided by others in UK will come to the fore. Scotland has Parlaiment, Wales and N.I. have assemblies |Cornwall recently got special status but England the largest and wealthiest county in UK has no representation just access to the UK parliament. This will have to change and Scotland will be the catalyst .

Watched an interesting program on what will happen to Scotland if yes vote. it was not happy family viewing. essentially shipbuilding, Finance and even parts of oil will move to UK. Also all the UK Govt jobs in Scotland will relocate to UK. So what the hell will Scotland have left ??? apart from Alcohol of course. I would not say the program was harrowing but it could give you some sleepless nights. One chap who worked on the recent carrier said that the yard will close as OUR BIGGEST CUSTOMER WILL NO LONGER BE A CUSTOMER. A few rowing boats will not keep a yard that can build a carrier active and this realisation was written on his face.

I've just been watching the latest coverage and have to say that I'm somewhat surprised and amused by the soap opera of the PM, deputy PM and Lib dem leader trundling up to Scotland to plead for a no vote.  I don't really understand why they care!  My experience of living in Scotland for a year was that the majority of hard working people were extremely welcoming to me but I couldn't help noticing that there were a few people who were extremely hostile to the English and clearly hate us.  That being the case I think it's healthy to give them the chance to be independent if they want. 

My own view is that on balance the Scots probably have more to lose by leaving the union, but it's absolutely right that they have the chance to vote on it.  If nothing else, if they do vote to stay part of the UK they will feel better about it having been given freedom to determine their own future rather than having it imposed on them.  The same applies in the case of the UK and the EU.

Jonathan

Whatever the outcome, Scotland is going to be a very divided nation and  with passions running so high,  intimidations will lead to an ugly future.  Whether have I seen this before?

I'm getting ready to immigrate. The influx of Scots  crossing the border is gonna be on a such a massive scale that we'd wish we had no been so hard on the Romanians. 

Very much so!

I know nothing about this particular issue, but splitting people into more sharply defined "tribes" can only be a bad thing, right?

And when does the splitting stop?

or do you do it by clan?

or by source of wealth?

if they can sell it :

http://business.financialpost....e-referendum-scotch/

Paul Krugman is the all time biggest "Useful Idiot" that ever sat at a keyboard.  He manufactures dumb ideas like Pepsi makes bottles of soda.  I loathe that man as much as anyone on the planet. 

A parasite who offers drivel on behalf of the status quo, pretending to care about common people.  Proof (among others) that a Nobel Prize ain't what it used to be...

So not actually terribly close then, a 10% winning margin for No.

What next for that slippery chancer Salmond? I hear Boris is leaving London Mayor....

There's a saying that many a true word is spoken in jest.

Heaven help us, for we know not what we have done!