Need your opinion. NDX vs. NDS (and each streamer's upgrade path)

Posted by: AAH57 on 30 August 2014

Hello everybody,

 

First and foremost, if I am reposting a previously discussed subject, I apologize to all. However, I need your opinion being tailored more to my situation. 

 

Currently, I am looking for a network streamer. I, unfortunately, am not a Naim product owner as of yet. I live in Iran and, due to sanctions, dealers have a heck of a hard time to go after British and American brands. Thus, the Naim brand is virtually non-existent here, much to the dismay of almost every Hifi enthusiast I know. All of this means, there's no possibility of demoing or auditioning locally for me.

 

While on a short business trip to Dubai, I visited an audio dealer, and there I listened to NaimUniti 2.  I just loved the warm, detailed, and inviting sound of it. The dealer did have the NDX, but he had to set it up, and I was constrained by time, so I didn't get a chance to demo it. I also listened to a range of other brands there, but since this is a Naim forum, I will forgo discussing my experience with those products.  As for my system, I own a pair of Musical Fidelity AMS Primo and AMS 50 for my pre/amp. My speakers are Focal 1038Bes, which in due course are to be upgraded to Focal Utopia Scala. The reason I badly want a Naim streamer is that with the combination of my setup, I believe I will gain a beautiful harmony of rhythm, detail, soundstage, and musicality through all the components. 

 

OK, for the sake of maintaing your attention, I am cutting to the chase. The above is my background, and the following is my dilemma:

 

First off, even after reading pages and pages of material about both the NDX and NDS, I still have not been able to form a clear picture, and in terms of audio reproduction, where the difference between the two becomes widely noticeable. So, maybe if you illuminate me on this matter, it alone can help me a lot in making a better decision.

 

I am thinking of taking either of the two following paths, and here your help will be much appreciated:

 

Option A: Go for the NDS, and buy a cheaper power supply, and then within 12 months, invest in the 555 PS (in this option, "perhaps" the cheaper PS will be a waste of funds for me, as I don't have a trade-in option available to me)

 

Option B: Go for NDX, and perhaps the Naim DAC (not the V1), and within 12 months invest in the power supply. 

 

Option C: Your suggestion.

 

I do realize purchasing something like this without demoing it personally is unorthodox (and to some perhaps borderline blasphemy), but I have to make do with the means available to me. (Ahh, if you're asking yourself that since I said Naim is not available locally, then why I am going after it, the answer to that is the dealer in Dubai is going to ship it to me). 

 

Cheers and many many thanks in advance!

 

P.S. Most all of my files are in Flac, and a some in 320kpbs. Between my wife and I, we listen to almost everything!

 

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by dayjay
Originally Posted by Mr Frog:
Originally Posted by dayjay:
Originally Posted by Harry:

I have heard the streamers back to back on three occasions. The jump in performance from the ND5 to the NDX is unambiguous. For my tastes the NDX offers the best sound per pound. To me the NDS is worth the difference but it’s a different kind of different. 

Have you heard them back to back into an external dac? Would be interested to know if there s much difference between digital streams from Naim streamers into, say, the Hugo

Excellent point dayjay ... My point exactly. To my knowledge, the differences (although not night and day) between ND5XS and NDX will be lost when you consider the use of the external DAC.

People seem to forget that Naim produced a fantastic streamer with the ND5XS and if it's only being used for the streaming element with Hugo doing it's fantastic magic as an external DAC, then it's pretty pointless spending £1000 more for the NDX considering that you won't be using it's potentially better (compared to ND5XS) internal DAC ....... But if you had a NDX already, obviously you wouldn't need to worry about anything at all. What we are talking about here is starting from scratch and it seems pointless to invest in NDX if you're going to use Hugo from day 1. Others obviously seem to have a different view, which is fine and I fully respect their opinion. 

I'd very much like to hear from anyone who has done a comparison.  I have my hugo hooked up to a uq2 and it sounds great but I would be interested to know if upgrading the uq2 at some point would give me a significant improvement

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by AAH57

So to summarize all the points thus far:

1. The jump from ND5XS to NDX is justified both in terms of price and production. 

2. The NDS sounds great but "different" -- this though remains to be better explained -- and as far as "sound for pound" goes, the price tag of NDS does not justify the jump from NDX to NDS. 

3. The golden combination is the NDX with Hugo and no PS.  Furthermore, some here argue, since Hugo is going to act as the DAC, investing in the NDX would be a waste of capital, and that one (as in "I") should go for the ND5XS or something less expensive and perhaps not Naim at all. 

4. Also there are divergent views on how practical and dependable the nstream app is. 

 

Hmm! Now, I am more mystified. 

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by AAH57:

So to summarize all the points thus far:

1. The jump from ND5XS to NDX is justified both in terms of price and production. 

2. The NDS sounds great but "different" -- this though remains to be better explained -- and as far as "sound for pound" goes, the price tag of NDS does not justify the jump from NDX to NDS. 

3. The golden combination is the NDX with Hugo and no PS.  Furthermore, some here argue, since Hugo is going to act as the DAC, investing in the NDX would be a waste of capital, and that one (as in "I") should go for the ND5XS or something less expensive and perhaps not Naim at all. 

4. Also there are divergent views on how practical and dependable the nstream app is. 

 

Hmm! Now, I am more mystified. 

Couldnt have said it better myself. But this is why you need to listen before deciding

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by Harry
Originally Posted by AAH57:

2. The NDS sounds great but "different" -- this though remains to be better explained -- and as far as "sound for pound" goes, the price tag of NDS does not justify the jump from NDX to NDS. 

Do a search? Reams have been written on the NDS and its abilities in musical communication and essential rightness. The experiences of fans and owners is embedded all over this forum.

 

Better still, hear stuff with your own ears. It's the only reliable way.

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by AAH57
Originally Posted by Harry:
Originally Posted by AAH57:

2. The NDS sounds great but "different" -- this though remains to be better explained -- and as far as "sound for pound" goes, the price tag of NDS does not justify the jump from NDX to NDS. 

Do a search? Reams have been written on the NDS and its abilities in musical communication and essential rightness. The experiences of fans and owners is embedded all over this forum.

 

Better still, hear stuff with your own ears. It's the only reliable way. 

If I could, I wouldn't be taking everybody's time here to tell me how it is. Refer to my OP.

I have read a lot about these products, and believe me equally as much about several other products. I do realize that at the end of the day, it boils down to what my ears hear, what my brain registers, and what I personally like. In a different situation, that is exactly what I would have done: to audition each of these units for myself. As I said before, unfortunately that luxury is not available to me.  Consequently, I am here reading your inputs, and building upon your personal sentiments. I am putting my trust in your taste. The reading a review part is over. Now it's what you think time, and for that I appreciate everybody's help. Plain and simple.

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by hungryhalibut

As a lot, if not most, of the 'Naim sound' comes from the amps, I'm not sure the dilemma is that great. Nobody seems to have heard the various streamers with the MF amps in question, and who knows how they will portray the relative differences. As the dealer had the NDX, that's what you need to try next, at home if possible. If you then added a 555PS to the NDX, it would open the way for an NDS later, and the NDX would be easier to sell than a power supply, as it's a stand alone unit. As for the Hugo, who knows?

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by Harry

The plain simple fact of the matter is that if you can't listen to what you buy before you buy it, all bets are off. Discussion and second hand impressions may be lengthy and entertaining but will not be in the least bit informative. You can't reach this kind of informed decision by proxy. Unfortunately.

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by AAH57
Originally Posted by Harry:

The plain simple fact of the matter is that if you can't listen to what you buy before you buy it, all bets are off. Discussion and second hand impressions may be lengthy and entertaining but will not be in the least bit informative. You can't reach this kind of informed decision by proxy. Unfortunately.

True. And why are we stating the obvious? It's not like I'm going to buy one of these components, and two days later come back to this forum complain about that I was mislead into buying something I didn't like in the end. The plain and simple fact is I am committing to a blind  purchase (or a def one for that matter). I just want to know the general sentiments on the Naim forum that which arrangement is most popular, and to a certain degree I have got it. 

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by Gandalf_fi

About NDS + 555, read The Absolute Sound issue 240:

 

http://www.nextnewsstand.com/p...olute-sound/tas-240/

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by Chag...

Try also the review of Hi-Fi Critic.

 

http://www.naimaudio.com/sites...ritic_April_2013.pdf

 

Chag -  

Posted on: 01 September 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by AAH57:
Originally Posted by Harry:

The plain simple fact of the matter is that if you can't listen to what you buy before you buy it, all bets are off. Discussion and second hand impressions may be lengthy and entertaining but will not be in the least bit informative. You can't reach this kind of informed decision by proxy. Unfortunately.

True. And why are we stating the obvious? It's not like I'm going to buy one of these components, and two days later come back to this forum complain about that I was mislead into buying something I didn't like in the end. The plain and simple fact is I am committing to a blind  purchase (or a def one for that matter). I just want to know the general sentiments on the Naim forum that which arrangement is most popular, and to a certain degree I have got it. 

I think Harry makes very good points, its the difference between having a front end your happy with against one that makes you smile every time you put it on, and only auditioning in your home in your system can give you this. Well unless your extremely lucky.

 

So unless you have oodles of cash burning a hole in your pocket, i for one could not throw down £12K on a front end in the hope i like it. Id want to be very very sure.

 

At the end of the day its all about system synergy and how your like your music reproduced. Any number of people can say that this or that product sounds good, but good to them may not be good to you.

 

There are those of us that have a Hugo on the front of our streamers and think they are the bees knees, but also others that think the bare streamer is better.

You cant make a decision on others peoples opinion.

 

Having said all that posting on a manufacturers forum site and asking which option is best, i think nine times out of ten you will get the response of "get the most expensive item" as those on the forum will be fans of that manufacturer. So not sure how impartial or objective the responses will be.

 

If i was you i'd go for either the ND5 or NDX and add a Hugo on it, but i would say that as its what i have. The reason, this way you can get an idea how how the bare Naim streamer sounds and what Hugo can do. If you prefer the Naim only then add the PSU's and later update to the NDS and sell the other kit. I'm sure you wont lose much on the resale. If you prefer Hugo then your quids in.

 

Graeme

 

 

Posted on: 02 September 2014 by AAH57
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by AAH57:
Originally Posted by Harry:

The plain simple fact of the matter is that if you can't listen to what you buy before you buy it, all bets are off. Discussion and second hand impressions may be lengthy and entertaining but will not be in the least bit informative. You can't reach this kind of informed decision by proxy. Unfortunately.

True. And why are we stating the obvious? It's not like I'm going to buy one of these components, and two days later come back to this forum complain about that I was mislead into buying something I didn't like in the end. The plain and simple fact is I am committing to a blind  purchase (or a def one for that matter). I just want to know the general sentiments on the Naim forum that which arrangement is most popular, and to a certain degree I have got it. 

I think Harry makes very good points, its the difference between having a front end your happy with against one that makes you smile every time you put it on, and only auditioning in your home in your system can give you this. Well unless your extremely lucky.

 

So unless you have oodles of cash burning a hole in your pocket, i for one could not throw down £12K on a front end in the hope i like it. Id want to be very very sure.

 

At the end of the day its all about system synergy and how your like your music reproduced. Any number of people can say that this or that product sounds good, but good to them may not be good to you.

 

There are those of us that have a Hugo on the front of our streamers and think they are the bees knees, but also others that think the bare streamer is better.

You cant make a decision on others peoples opinion.

 

Having said all that posting on a manufacturers forum site and asking which option is best, i think nine times out of ten you will get the response of "get the most expensive item" as those on the forum will be fans of that manufacturer. So not sure how impartial or objective the responses will be.

 

If i was you i'd go for either the ND5 or NDX and add a Hugo on it, but i would say that as its what i have. The reason, this way you can get an idea how how the bare Naim streamer sounds and what Hugo can do. If you prefer the Naim only then add the PSU's and later update to the NDS and sell the other kit. I'm sure you wont lose much on the resale. If you prefer Hugo then your quids in.

 

Graeme

 

 

Graeme,

I genuinely agree with your sentiment. What I am trying to do is ill-advised -- well let's be frank, it's bold and dumb. I do know that. Having said that, what could I do. Well, I could wait until December to go audition them in London, or in April when I am back in the US. That is a long wait for me (perhaps patience is not of one of my strong points). I did like the Naim sound. I don't know how it will be projected in my own system. I will either be lucky or unlucky. But your proposal is the most logical one I have come to think of. I think if and when I do it, it'll be the NDX with the Hugo, and in December, I will audition everything in London, and from that point I have a far clearer picture as to how course correct. 

Posted on: 02 September 2014 by AAH57
Originally Posted by Gandalf_fi:

About NDS + 555, read The Absolute Sound issue 240:

 

http://www.nextnewsstand.com/p...olute-sound/tas-240/

Thanks, I haven't read this one. 

 

Originally Posted by Chag...:

Try also the review of Hi-Fi Critic.

 

http://www.naimaudio.com/sites...ritic_April_2013.pdf

 

Chag -  

I have read this one though . But thank you in any case.

Posted on: 02 September 2014 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
Originally Posted by AAH57:
> Getting back to my original issue, if I want to go with the Hugo, the biggest drawback for me is the lack of XLR as my system is balanced biased. Nevertheless, should I go with the NDX / Hugo setup, then I imagine a Naim PS becomes of no practical significance. Hence, the NDX/Hugo combo falls well within my budget limit. As my speakers are a bit bright, and Naim sounds warm (but not syrupy or colored), I am envisioning a remarkable harmony in my system that yields an open, vibrant, yet warm and inviting sonic nirvana that offers contained highs, a brilliant midrange, and a taut punchy agile bass. The introduction of Hugo however changes the sonic canvas that I have painted on in my head -- whether for better or worse, that I have my reservations about (though it seems to be the common sentiment in this forum that it would be for the better - much better in fact). <

Hi,

 

If you're looking for a source with balanced outputs, and the sonic character underlined in your post, look no further than the Resonessence Labs Mirus. I have the Naim DAC and the Hugo, but the Mirus is the one I'm planning to retire with. I was heading towards the NDS, but the Mirus gets me, and my wife, so far into the music that I have no desire to look any further. The level of insight that this DAC provides is unreal. The Hugo is very, very good, but the Mirus goes further, much further.

 

If you can relax your requirement for a streaming source, the Mirus includes an SD card reader and an HDMI connection for an external monitor. The SD card as source is stunningly good, giving my UnitiServe and linear PS a run for its money. Drop your files onto the SD card, insert the card into the Mirus and you're good to go... No network, no control app, not even an SPDIF cable in sight. 

 

The Mirus also does all the hi-res stuff, including DSD and DXD, but I do most of my listening to regular redbook and it sounds amazing.

 

Jan

 

Posted on: 02 September 2014 by ChrisH

AAH57, whilst I cannot add anything to the equipment choices you are considering as I do not own any of them, I can say that nStream works fine for me, maybe a littler 'clunky', but it is dependable and never crashes.

The new app due out sometime soon will hopefully solve all of the negative points alluded to by some and will be applicable to new streaming products as I understand it.

Today's version of nStream will also function.

This is a minor point though. 

I think the real 'bones' of your choice seem to have been made, and the route, via audition when you are in UK, would be the best. 

Posted on: 03 September 2014 by Kevin Richardson
Originally Posted by AAH57:
Originally Posted by Foxman50:
Originally Posted by AAH57:
Originally Posted by Harry:

The plain simple fact of the matter is that if you can't listen to what you buy before you buy it, all bets are off. Discussion and second hand impressions may be lengthy and entertaining but will not be in the least bit informative. You can't reach this kind of informed decision by proxy. Unfortunately.

True. And why are we stating the obvious? It's not like I'm going to buy one of these components, and two days later come back to this forum complain about that I was mislead into buying something I didn't like in the end. The plain and simple fact is I am committing to a blind  purchase (or a def one for that matter). I just want to know the general sentiments on the Naim forum that which arrangement is most popular, and to a certain degree I have got it. 

I think Harry makes very good points, its the difference between having a front end your happy with against one that makes you smile every time you put it on, and only auditioning in your home in your system can give you this. Well unless your extremely lucky.

 

So unless you have oodles of cash burning a hole in your pocket, i for one could not throw down £12K on a front end in the hope i like it. Id want to be very very sure.

 

At the end of the day its all about system synergy and how your like your music reproduced. Any number of people can say that this or that product sounds good, but good to them may not be good to you.

 

There are those of us that have a Hugo on the front of our streamers and think they are the bees knees, but also others that think the bare streamer is better.

You cant make a decision on others peoples opinion.

 

Having said all that posting on a manufacturers forum site and asking which option is best, i think nine times out of ten you will get the response of "get the most expensive item" as those on the forum will be fans of that manufacturer. So not sure how impartial or objective the responses will be.

 

If i was you i'd go for either the ND5 or NDX and add a Hugo on it, but i would say that as its what i have. The reason, this way you can get an idea how how the bare Naim streamer sounds and what Hugo can do. If you prefer the Naim only then add the PSU's and later update to the NDS and sell the other kit. I'm sure you wont lose much on the resale. If you prefer Hugo then your quids in.

 

Graeme

 

 

Graeme,

I genuinely agree with your sentiment. What I am trying to do is ill-advised -- well let's be frank, it's bold and dumb. I do know that. Having said that, what could I do. Well, I could wait until December to go audition them in London, or in April when I am back in the US. That is a long wait for me (perhaps patience is not of one of my strong points). I did like the Naim sound. I don't know how it will be projected in my own system. I will either be lucky or unlucky. But your proposal is the most logical one I have come to think of. I think if and when I do it, it'll be the NDX with the Hugo, and in December, I will audition everything in London, and from that point I have a far clearer picture as to how course correct. 

That is crazy talk.  You can rest assured that the ND5 NDX and Hugo are all great hifi products.  The only real decision is how many $ you want to spend.  The vast majority of opinions I've read indicate that ND5 < NDX << NDX + Hugo.  I do not know what the rest of your system looks like but I thought the ND5 was good enough…until I heard the NDX.  The very day I bought my NDX the first ever Hugo post was made on the forum…  I think this idea of Auditioning is overrated when the relatively inexpensive price tags vs possible resale values are considered.  But… I do live in the middle of a corn field.

Posted on: 24 September 2014 by Drew Turner
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:
Originally Posted by AAH57:
> Getting back to my original issue, if I want to go with the Hugo, the biggest drawback for me is the lack of XLR as my system is balanced biased. Nevertheless, should I go with the NDX / Hugo setup, then I imagine a Naim PS becomes of no practical significance. Hence, the NDX/Hugo combo falls well within my budget limit. As my speakers are a bit bright, and Naim sounds warm (but not syrupy or colored), I am envisioning a remarkable harmony in my system that yields an open, vibrant, yet warm and inviting sonic nirvana that offers contained highs, a brilliant midrange, and a taut punchy agile bass. The introduction of Hugo however changes the sonic canvas that I have painted on in my head -- whether for better or worse, that I have my reservations about (though it seems to be the common sentiment in this forum that it would be for the better - much better in fact). <

Hi,

 

If you're looking for a source with balanced outputs, and the sonic character underlined in your post, look no further than the Resonessence Labs Mirus. I have the Naim DAC and the Hugo, but the Mirus is the one I'm planning to retire with. I was heading towards the NDS, but the Mirus gets me, and my wife, so far into the music that I have no desire to look any further. The level of insight that this DAC provides is unreal. The Hugo is very, very good, but the Mirus goes further, much further.

 

If you can relax your requirement for a streaming source, the Mirus includes an SD card reader and an HDMI connection for an external monitor. The SD card as source is stunningly good, giving my UnitiServe and linear PS a run for its money. Drop your files onto the SD card, insert the card into the Mirus and you're good to go... No network, no control app, not even an SPDIF cable in sight. 

 

The Mirus also does all the hi-res stuff, including DSD and DXD, but I do most of my listening to regular redbook and it sounds amazing.

 

Jan

 

Jan, 

What are your thoughts on the sonic differences between different USB cables? Which USB cable do you use ? So far I've only had the opportunity audition and compare  the new Nordost Heimdall USB and the stock USB cable that is included with the Mira .