Home Router / Networking issues

Mine is all on a switch, including an Airport Express that I use for the iPad and streaming from the UnitiServe to the kitchen radio. Even if you turn the router off, the system keeps going. One day I hope I can contribute something useful, after all the help you've given me......

That's very useful N -- I need to isolate everything from the (possibly offending) piece of crap router, I think.

I have a spare switch; cannot hurt to try it.

I had very similar issues until I put a switch in and replaced my ISP supplied router with a Netgear one.

No problems at all now.

Actually....thinking more clearly....EVERYTHING on my network goes into one big 16-port unmanaged switch.  So to some extent it's ALL isolated from the router.  I'm not sure that a second switch (which I could connect to the first switch, or the router directly) would make a difference.

I agree about using a switch. You could use the switchports on the time capsule itself. For mutimedia applications we need to ensure the switch/router/wifi supports the right network protocols for discovery etc... (Such as multicast packets). Some ISP router's switch ports appear problematic here. Because of Airplay, Apple ensure their products work for multimedia and discovery, and to a network device DLNA/UPnP looks similar to Airplay.

If you can't use the Time Capsule switch ports.. Use a mini consumer switch like a Netgear or Linksys, and have everything connected to that switch including your ISP router and your Time Capsule.

Simon

Hi Guys,

As a general 'rule of thumb' I tend to work with the following in mind...

ISP supplied routers are not supplied because they are 'the best' - they are supplied so that ISPs only have to train their support staff in one device. Typically an ISP will *ONLY* support the router that they supply and won't / can't help if you replace your router.

When I'm setting up a network for myself (or for someone else when I know I'm going to have to support it) then what I normally try to do is to *KEEP* the ISP supplied router but disable the WiFi on it then drop in a decent cable router behind it to take the role of looking after the internal network - that way if you have issues then you can yank the link between your network router and the ISPs router to identify where issues lie. This comes in handy as often ISPs will immediately start looking elsewhere for issues and if you can tell them that you have one device connected to their router (your PC showing the issue as you've pulled the link to your internal network) then they tend to take you more seriously.

I'm not an Apple fanboi myself but the AirPort Extreme does seem a pretty reliable bit of kit in this respect although it does complain when setting it up in this way that it's doing double NAT but when you tell it to ignore this it does and just gets on with things - I've never tried a recent Time Capsule as a router so I'm afraid I can't comment on that but the previous one wasn't particularly reliable in this role when I tried it out.

Similarly I *ALWAYS* try to then take only a single feed down to a half-decent network switch and then feed the rest of the network from there - don't go buying a managed switch unless you really know what you are doing and that you *NEED* one. In this case 'more expensive' doesn't necessarily mean better as managed switches may come configured to filter out IGMP discovery so I tend to suggest the NetGear 'ProSafe' switches - the 8 port and 16 port are easily available at local PC shops and are fanless and have a lifetime warranty.

Always use pre-terminated network cables - It is just not worth the hassle of making and crimping your own and it's too easy to get it wrong if you don't understand the different termination standards.

If you're still having problems then drop me a line and we'll see if we can help...

Phil

I have my ISP router with Wifi disabled, connected to an Airport Extreme. After a ropy start, I now have things working OK, but was wondering if I should add an unmanaged switch anyway. I was hoping this might speed things up a bit, and possibly even improve sound quality a bit. (On the other hand, if it ain't bust, don't fix it could be a good philosophy?)

Simon, if I understand correctly, you'd suggest connecting both the ISP router and AE to ports on the switch. This differs from the idea ( in Huge's networking guide) that the switch can be used to create an 'audio subsystem' helping to separate audio and non-audio traffic: in my case, this would mean connecting the switch to the AE only, not the ISP router. Any thoughts?

Chris, indeed I would recommend attaching the AE and ISP router to a switch. For me with cheap consumer equipment, by doing that you are reducing the likelihood of issues. 

There is no great technical/performance benefit in creating a seperate audio 'sub system' with a seperate audio only switch in addition to a switch for everything else .. Switches create seperate segments by definition of them being a network switch. Therefore for our applications in wired networks there is no issue of mixing data types at the stand alone switch. Wifi is different for technical reasons and there can be benefit in having a separate SSID for audio/ control point only applications.

However it is the layout of your house is more likely to dictate whether you have a local switch nearer your audio equipment. There is no issue cascading switches within reason.

Simon

The general rule is no more than five switches between any two devices that need to talk to each other...

Phil

Thanks Simon, time for me to do a bit of network tweaking.

Phil, I think I might manage with less than 5!

Bart, apologies for hijacking your thread.

It wouldn't. As you stated in your first post, your UnitiServe is always seen on your network via OS-X Finder on your Mac.

So there is nothing wrong with your Verizon supplied router. Your Time Capsule settings seem correct - the bridge setting will ensure there is no double NAT or DHCP conflicts. If it is the latest model, just make sure that IGMP Snooping is not enabled. Again - if OS-X Finder can locate the uServe, then the issue is network discovery within the Naim apps.

Is the IP address of your uServe changing? Are you using automatic discovery with nServe - both the OS-X and iOS versions?

Use manual addressing instead, and give the uServe a fixed IP address assuming your Verizon router enables you to do this. It should.

Fused, thanks.  I have long ago assigned a fixed IP address to the uServe (the Verizon router permits this). 

Indeed, the uServe is ALWAYS seen by OS X finder, even when n-Serve running on the same Mac reports that it's "offline."

Rebooting the uServe corrects this latter issue; after rebooting it, n-Serve on the Mac talks to it again.

That is odd.

There is no refresh function on the Naim control points (I only use nServe - I stream from my uServe to a DAC). The only way I have seen to force nServe to rescan the network is to cycle between Auto and Manual discovery via the Preference menu on OS-X or the Setting menu in iOS.

I have also noticed that in Auto mode, nServe does not attempt continuous network discovery. It tries once, then sits there waiting for you to do something.

It is possible that in the course of a few days, your Verizon router is rebooting. I just looked at their website to see what routers they were using, and noticed some fairly long threads re. the primary FiOS router rebooting very regularly. 

It may be that when the router reboots, and nServe has lost the connection, it won't get it back until you force a handshake. Perhaps you can check your router log to see if this coincides with nServe losing the uServe. And try cycling between Auto and Manual to see if this brings it back rather than having to reboot the uServe.

The only other thing I can think of is that there are some UPnP issues occurring. OS-X Finder is looking for, and finding, a network attached device. nServe (and I assume your NDS?) is looking for an UPnP device. The Actiontec router that Verizon normallly supplies for FiOS has some issues here. See this post:

http://forums.verizon.com/t5/F...R-router/td-p/655147

However, given you are running from the Verizon router to a switch, then from the switch to your devices, then this UPnP traffic should not be hitting your router. And this is the right way to do it. I assume you are not using any of the LAN connections on your Time Capsule - better that everything comes just from your switch. Apple network devices do not play that well with UPnP and multicasting, as Phil almost alluded to earlier. And you want to avoid loops in your network. Apple wireless is good, though.

Good luck - these small network glitches can be frustrating.

I've always found that keeping both 'auto connection' and 'stay connected' on, in both nserve and nstream/naim app, makes no difference. I'm not even sure what, exactly, these functions are intended to do, but they certainly don't seem to help the apps see the devices they control, or to see them more quickly, either on opening the app from scratch, or on returning to it during playback.

...actually if you're using the WiFi on the router then the autodiscovery *IS* being done via the router so if it has issues - especially with passing those protocols between the wired and wireless networks - then that could be the problem. Any way you could try on a different router?

Without wanting to seem - erm - awkward, Apple's AirPort Express and Extreme do seem to support the various autodiscovery protocols quite will (they use Bonjour themselves very extensively of course) but I have to say that I've not been particularly impressed with their WiFi coverage using either the AirPort Express or Extreme (I've not tried the Time Capsules).

It's always been OSX support for UPnP serving that has been the biggest bugbear but now that Asset is out on OSX (sorry to all those Minimserver fans but Asset does tend to be an easy and reliable choice for 'normal' folk to use) that's not been such a problem.

For poor WiFi coverage issues I've had some good results using the Ubiquiti 'Unifi' kit ... it isn't as good as a proper hardware managed wireless network but it is nowhere near as expensive - £170 for a dual band wireless access point - but much better than dotting wireless extenders and wireless repeaters all over the place...

Cheers

Phil 

Thank you again for thinking about this.  All of your suggestions are helpful, but this one is particularly so.  I do think (no expert here by far) that even if my router were rebooting, the fact that everything is thru the switch should 'insulate' things from the rebooting effects.  But who knows.  I'll at least try to track down whether indeed my Actiontec router is rebooting itself.

I'd love to eliminate its routing functions completely, but I don't think I can.  I do need it in the system, as it has the coax input needed to connect to my home coax cable network.  That's how Verizon works -- with the in-home legacy coax cable network.  I can try turning off its routing functions and letting a third-party router handle DHCP, but I'm not sure that my FiOS cable boxes will like that.  My quick read of Verizon forums reveals that it's not a simple thing.

Phil, I have found Airport devices to be a solution to wifi problems rather than a cause. When I used wifi on my Superuniti it was hopelessly unreliable. I plugged an Airport Express into the wall socket behind it, and connected it to the SU with a short ethernet cable, and suddenly, my SU can see my US, my iPhone can see my SU, and hi-res files play without buffering. And there's the added bonus of Airplay by adding an optical connection, which is great for low-fi stuff like iplayer radio, spotify etc.

So I now have a setup which seems pretty stable and reliable. I had considered adding a long ethernet cable to the SU, but it would be a messy DIY epic, so I'd have to be sure of a significant sound quality improvement to make this worthwhile.

A qualified +1 for the Ubiquiti Unifi things if anyone is considering them.  All my Naim stuff, TVs etc are on ethernet, but with two of these beasties in my house the wifi coverage, performance, stability is very good for laptops, iPads, and a Zeppelin Air.  Certainly better than my previous BT homehub.

I too had noticed that some Verizon users had successfully migrated to a non-Verizon supplied router. But it will be a fair amount of work, with plenty of frustration along the way. And you risk, as you said, impacting on some of your Verizon services.

I did notice that Verizon are due to release a new router this autumn, as they are upgrading wireless to AC. This might be a better option?

Given you said you had a spare switch, you might also try what was suggested earlier and run an ethernet cable from your 16 outlet switch to this second switch, and then connect the uServe and the Time Capsule if possible. UPnP and multicasting (for network discovery) can be affected by timing issues in the network, so that is one final roll of the dice.

In fact, the only way I can connect the Linn Klimax DSM and Auralic Aries I use in other systems is via this method. The Naim is the only device I am aware of that has control points which do not rely exclusively on automatic network discovery. Bravo Naim.

After that, it may just be simpler to wait the 30 seconds or so for the uServe to reboot. Time that can be spent cursing Naim for not making the front logo control capable of turning the device back on, in addition to turning it off.

Perfect on all fronts.  I will indeed set up a switch-off-of-my-main-switch for just the audio and wifi (Time Capsule) and see if that makes a difference.

And yeah, the hardest thing about rebooting the uServe once a week indeed is reaching around 'back of it to flip that switch.  Based on where it's located, I have to be a bit of a contortionist.

And I'll fuss at Verizon and get a new router when the next gen is out.

Thanks again,

Bart

Keep the ideas coming