What happened to the classical music listeners on the forum?

It is a fair point that discussions of music have all but dried up. We do have the "What are you listening to now?" thread, but I am certain that what I might be listening to could not be of less interest to most people. Very rarely I post about something on it, but try to add in some little story about the artists to pep it up a bit, but mostly discussing the music you are listeening to is not more interesting than the nth. new thread about what a Hiline will bring to my replay.

Specifically about classical music, there used to be a good dozen members who could carry on a discussion of a performing artist, conductor, a specific performance, or a composer in a way that managed to cover a wide range of differing views - sharp contrasts sometimes - but mostly without bad nature. Members like Herman, RdeS, Tam, are some that still resonate in my memory, and there were others, who were just as passionate.

I am particularly sad that pe zulu no longer posts regualrly here as I found his thoughtful contributions were indeed among the most thought provoking on music here, but the decline in threads on classical music started long before the forum format change. I think that was simply the last nail in the coffin really. But yes, these discussions have become difficult to sustain when perhaps there are only only two contributors really exchanging views, and sometimes even a thread that ends with the opening post. And so all that can be hoped for is that people realise that there are some great threads in the archive and search them out!

ATB from George

Graham55, I think the new forum is reaching its intended audience far better than the old forum, as times have changed.

In the spirit of seeking friendly converse I have to ask a question.  The posts i remember where we conversed were ill tempered, or at least that's how I remember.  Why is that?

Mike, you ask, so I'll reply, but I can't imagine that what follows will surprise you, not that I expect it to worry you.

Because your posts suggested that you were didactic, unwilling to entertain ideas that went beyond your very narrow interests, and (as I was forced to observe before) you showed a hide thicker than a rhino, when others (myself included) suggested that you might show a degree of humility when challenged on some of your more pompous pronouncements.

So, not really someone with whom I feel able to engage, fruitfully, on a forum. (I avoid your threads, and will continue to do so, with immediate effect.)

LMAO

Eventually, everyone gets to be an old guy, or they aren't anything at all.

Forming conclusions are an on going part of life for all living things, or so I think.

Conclusions collect as you age, and they change the way you look at things.

It's a blessing and a curse.

At least I can come here to the forum and read opinions other than my own.

That is a vital benefit to me. 

It keeps me more alive.

Thanks :-)

Yes, I too came to this forum in hopes of being able to learn more about the music I like and be a part of interesting discussions on all aspects of music with like minded people.  So where all the Classical listeners are is a relevant question I have asked myself many times as well.  Maybe, there simply were never that many to begin with?

One thing I know for sure is that it has nothing to do with forum platform change (or shouldn't).  This is simply a big Red Herring if I ever saw one.

If one is coming to be a part of a community, how does this have anything to do with a "old" forum vs. "new" forum?  The key is in the contributing by individuals as well as coming with a decent attitude in the first place.  One could contribute in the "old" forum and one can contribute in the "new" forum.

While I agree that some valid points have been raised by many here about some shortcomings and differences to note but given that Naim knows about this now it is really just a matter of having patience and not dwelling on the negative forever.

Regards,

Doug 

Dear Doug,

One of the problems with classical music is that it has a mystique about it that can appear exclusive to those who feel themselves not in the know. That is a shame, and one thing I tried those years ago to address with my several "First Concertos, ... Piano Pieces, ... Chamber Music threads. In those days we could rely on perhaps as many as 12 differing contributors, even if some would suggest that Bartok String Quartets were "entry-level" chamber music, which was fairly off-putting to those trying to grasp the topic.

I think we all have a certain amount to contribute and some have a very great deal to offer, such as the tireless Todd, whose many posts and threads on Beethoven and the New Music Log and so forth have been going on as long as I can remember!

But I doubt if an enterprise like my First ... Threads would work today.

Also because of the seeming exclusivity of classical music, sometimes those not very much acquainted with it take the point of those for whom it is the main interest as being patronising, which is rarer than perceived, but it can breed a sort of aggression in replies, which puts off those who posted trying to share knowledge. Mostly I would have thought that after such an incident [and historically there have been many over my time on the Forum] the person trying to help is more than content to not bother again and concentrate on listening and learning for themselves, and share their pleasures and gems of discovery with known real life friends, whose reaction will be one of delight rather than what sometimes happens here.

So yes, I would say that the classical music discussions here have burned themselves out until a whole new generation comes along wanting this discussion. I know that my interest have focused more sharply on a smaller amount of types [or genres] of music, and thus, though I might be fascinated by Chopin at a sort of tangent, I know that I have nothing useful to offer on his music or its performance.

Really I would only comment on Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Handel, Sibelius, and Elgar nowadays. Bach, and Haydn and to a lesser extent Handel are my favourites, and they wrote more music than I could ever know intimately. I see no reason to make a special effort to broaden my focus much, and apart from concerts and the radio would not investigate the music of others in the form of additional recordings. With Elgar and Sibelius, well these are composers whose music I still adore, and were earlier investigative enthusiasms of mine before Bach and Haydn became my main focus.

The thing is that not all that many people are deeply interested here in say Bach and Haydn, so it is like trying to get blood out of a stone once you go much past the Brandenburgs or the Goldberg Variation these days!

So it seems that I have a problem doing more than enjoying the posts of others on topical areas, which are near, if not quite on, my own main interests.

Also I have never much enjoyed getting into detailed discussions of performances rather than what is being performed, so again I pull back from the exercise, as nothing seems more to bring out an element of rancour in this than stating opinions about performances, and people start talking about opinionss as if they were facts, when the only facts are really whether the performance is stylish. Really it is possible to dislike a stylistically correct performance and prefer one that is less so, but it is all opinion at the end of the day, and as such is poor material for debating. Even my firm belief that Bach does not usually go well on the piano [rather than the harpsichord] is apt to bring sharp reactions. I feel no need to involve myself in an argument about what the instrument was that Bach wrote for, when it is stated at the head of the score!

So I would doubt that unless some fresh blood joins the Forum with a firm desire to discuss classical music, then the situation of decline would probably continue ...

Somewhat gloomily on the subject, I say ATB from George

Dear George,

Sadly, I do not think I could disagree with much of what you said.  You are right on the mark although I find myself really wishing you were dead wrong about most of it.

Music is such a personal thing and maybe everyone has there own experiences or expectations with it but at least for me the majority of my time with music is on a one on one on one scenario =>me, myself, & I (both in practicing and listening).  It is not really a team sport or effort with the exception of the small amount of chamber music that I am able to do but then again the only togetherness is in a few rehearsals or any performances we would do.  To a certain degree, I enjoy the singular nature of this otherwise I wouldn't do it but to be balanced I still feel a need in me to communicate or share all the wonderful aspects of music with those who are interested.  I would hope that others might share this mutual longing.  Music is such an important part of life and discovering ones own soul.  To discuss or share is to grow and can be like breaking bread with close acquaintances.

One of the hardest things then about being involved with music is the loneliness or solitary aspect.  This is the number one cry of most solo performers that I know or have read about.  I would still love to come once in a while to a strong, healthy, and vibrant Music Room that is swirling with activity and having no shortage of many keen contributors.

So for now that means once in a while sharing my love of music with others in the "What we're listening to thread."  It is a nice, harmless way to be here and it doesn't involve too much danger of walking into minefields etc. that some of the other threads seem to be ripe for.  Maybe I'm still naive enough to think that all threads should be so "safe" and positive?  I'm sure if we met all face to face to discuss music it would be more conducive to discussion?

I agree with you about the risks of negative experiences.  Who would want to stick around if it isn't a positive experience in the first place?

But then just the nature of this subject puts most of us at odds with one another and this isn't necessarily such a bad thing.  We just have to understand or be aware of this from the start.  A healthy, robust debate about any subject is usually the best way to learn something new and keeps it interesting.  Alternatively, if everyone had the same view this bandwagon effect eventually leads to suffocation and loss of life not to mention myopia.

I know that in many threads of the past, my not contributing was usually a function of three things.  First is sometimes one doesn't feel knowledgeable enough to add anything, second is just to avoid a thread that maybe disinterested people have come in to sabotage and third is simply a lack of time.  For the first problem I still find these types extremely interesting to read and follow along too.  I think if the Forum culture were that all input is welcome and that there are no dumb questions then many, including myself, would feel more comfortable coming in and getting involved more often.

I hope something positive can develop to revitalize or resurrect life in this Music Room.

Best Regards,

Doug

Dear Doug,

I agree that a range of different views is vastly more useful than a mono-culture! But the vital thing is to keep the differences stated politely without personal rancour, and that really has gone over the years. We used to have real tough debate, but only fairly rare personal abuse. Now the abuse comes before and instead of robust debate.

I have walked into a few musical minefields, and wish it were not so open to wreck threads as easily as two or three derailing posts. Perhaps one day we shall have the possibility of sharing our experiences and joys that music can bring, between ourselves without the risk of derailments? I did put my email address up for ten minutes on this post, but I am no longer happy to leave it in my profile. I deleted it, but we can try again one day if you are interested. Or we could jointly approach the mods to share our contact details if that would please you. I love to share thoughts on music ... It is all that really keeps me here now ... That hope of sharing ...

ATB from George

I am glad there are still some classical music lovers on here.  I love punk and metal and the Cure, electronica and hard bop Jazz, but classical has a special place in my heart.  My father is a great clarinet player and teacher at a university and my brother plays in the Ft. Worth symphony (French Horn) so I grew up around classical music.  Now that I have a good vinyl setup I am able to hear the great recordings from the 50s-70s and now that I am into high-end audio I appreciate classical even more. I used to not be into classical recordings because my equipment wasn't good enough to reproduce it. 

Anyway, what I love to listen to these days in terms of classical music: anything Klemperer conducts (is that controversial enough?), Maurice Andre trumpet recordings (the best), Wagner, Mahler, Handel, Telemman, Palestrina, Stravinsky, Bartok (someone mentioned the string quartets earlier in the thread, which I love, and his concerto for orchestra is probably my favorite orchestral work along with the Rite of Spring) and others. I don't stick to one era.

What I would like to see is a discussion of more modern (recent, up and coming) composers that are likely to remain important decades on, good recordings of their music, etc. 

I do hope you folks continue to post on matters classical. There is a silent following who, whist not being knowledgeable on the subject and find the sheer range of classical styles and composers rather intimidating, nevertheless enjoy the music (how could one not?).

I'm very indebted to George for his recommendations on Bach and Elgar, all of which I've found to be quite excellent and have in particular brought home to me how important the performance is, probably more than the piece itself.

So please keep it up good people, your efforts are sincerely appreciated.

Well, I've just been hibernating.

And listening to Argerich...

Why, thank you. And Todd was a major contributor, of course.

I did have some problems with the software, a couple of years ago. However, suddenly I started receiving naim forum alerts in my mailbox, and so I had another look, and it turned out I was a naim forum member, still, after all these years!

I have the identical gear as ten years ago (1st gen CD5 and old-style CDX), only a little dustier. No tweaking whatsoever. And we have a four-year old daughter who, @#*@!, has started to insert cds in the player herself, even though I told her a million times not to do so. (I couldn't afford a new one, right now.)

For classical music discussion you may wish to visit the GMG Classical Music Forum.....I find it quite interesting and active.

Writer/Big Dutch Women Herman?

I'm not me by the way...

Oh, yes, that was with Mr Stallion, wasn't it?

Let us not speak of the horsey one.

Just to say welcome back, and two of your personal recommendations to me (Late Brahms/Lupu and Ravel Introduction and Allegro/Melos Ensemble) are amongst my most treasured CDs.

Good to know you are alive well sir.

I read the classical posts and learn a lot, my tastes have changed, but I tend to go to live performances at LA Phil and Ojai.  I go to Met HD broadcasts, tho not all, and have decided to drop my LA Opera subscription because half the performances were so-so and taking care of my 89 YO parents meant half the tickets went to friends. Now I get almost weekly calls from the Opera trying to sweeten the deal.  I did get to see Britten's Turn of the Screw and really enjoyed it because the only other I've seen in Peter Grimes.

I also find that classical takes a lot more concentration (I know that's a revelation to a few...) but when I get home from dealing with my folks I want familiar music and that tends to be popular, vocal jazz, etc.  Maybe just one side then on to the next.  Then, periods like now, it's mostly movies for escapism. I guess to sum it up life changes and I go thru phases. Life, and the world, is really tough right now.

Please don't stop discussing classical and performances. Once George mentioned Dennis Brain and I realized in some LPs a friend gave me I had it and put it on a few times. Nice to discover new things but I tend not to go in depth as George would of every Haydn.

Thanks from Mr Wolf