Bach: Musical Values or Arbitrary Rules?

Posted by: Florestan on 26 October 2014

With any music, is any listening or performing experience supposed to be about the musical value we hope to derive from it or is it simply about the sound (i.e.. harpsichord vs. piano vs. ?) or other arbitrary rules insisted on by many?

 

A relative recent phenomenon or movement in the last century seems to impose a rather harsh set of rules on playing or listening to western art music.  Rather curiously though this imposition seems to start with and be squarely placed on the music and shoulders of Johann Sebastian Bach.  Other targets exist too but due to my own interest in the music of Bach, I’ll use him to center my questioning around as I find it very interesting to understand why this is happening?  I am on and have been on a quest for my own personal journey in music for nearly my whole life save about the first four years (both as a pianist and one who enjoys the pleasure of listening). 

 

So, in general, the question or statement that has tripped me up and backed me into a corner of submission the most often is in some form of view that, “Bach only wrote music intended for the harpsichord.”  Alternatively, it comes in the form of, “Bach did not write music intended to be played on a piano or modern grand piano.”

 

This represents a rather hard-line approach to take when all is said and done in my view.  There seems to be no middle ground here and I have wondered for years why not?  In music or art, is there room for only an “either / or” approach?  In my mind, the obvious answer is a firm no.

 

While my preference will undoubtedly be for a piano in any case I do not want this to be a debate about my preference.  I listen to harpsichord music being played all the time and enjoy it and respect it in its own right as well.  What I am mostly hoping to answer here for myself and to resolve in my mind the untidy argument that wants to force people to comply one way or the other? 

 

The first reason and most obvious response that I have against the law setting and impositions of the HIPster movement is that no one can (or should) not speak authoritatively for a dead person nor one that you have never met, for that matter.  I know that I have myself many ideas and beliefs about my favourite composers but I do know I do have to temper these and remember that there is a difference between fact and opinion.  I can only ever offer an opinion on any topic related to music of dead composers.

 

The second question I have for the many posed against a rendering of the music of Bach on a modern grand piano is why is it only ever usually stated that Bach only intended to write for the harpsichord?  I mean, why have I never heard people argue that Bach only intended to write keyboard music to be played back on an organ or clavichord?  Why just the harpsichord?

 

I will say in response to this that I do wholly agree with the argument that some music is written that takes full advantage of a specific instrument.  It is plain to see that some music does suit the physics of the “machine” better.  Bach was intelligent and of course did understand the physics and of course exploited these advantages but at the same time would have also been quite aware of the disadvantages and limitations.

 

A careful examination of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier is a good starting point to rebut this.  Is it written entirely for only a harpsichord specifically?  No!  In my opinion, you could easily argue based on the writing that the works individually fall into at least three main types of writing which means those tending to be written for a harpsichord, for a clavichord, or for an organ (the three main keyboards Bach had at his disposal at that time).  Examples of this group from book 1 might be (entirely random and my opinion) the D major fugue, the E major prelude, and the c-sharp minor fugue, respectively.  If time were on Bach’s side we would add a fortepiano and eventually our modern grand piano (IMHO).

 

The harpsichord is perfectly suited for fast, brilliant sections and quick ornamentation but at the same time it generally sounds mechanical (the sound is produced by plucking a string).  Physically, there is no way to affect the outcome of the sound produced by pressing a key differently thus it tends to be severely inexpressive as a result.  It produces a wall of sound and is at its best when many fast notes are played together.  Otherwise, next to the harpsichord’s real ability is to produce a flurry of sound it cannot produce a rise or fall in loudness and at the same time can easily be drowned out when playing in a chamber/concerto situation depending on the size of room.

 

A clavichord did add the benefit of being able to change the tone and colour of the sonority of sound by skilfully changing the way you pressed the key.  Bach quite liked this feature from what we read but the clavichord was a very soft instrument very well suited for a home mostly. 

 

The organ of course was the grandest of all of these instruments and was the first one fully suited to appreciate the counterpoint Bach cherished in his writing for more than one voice.  Of course, an organ can achieve an infinite length of sustain of any note so long as you hold the key down.  Combine this with two, three, four or even five voices and the result is truly fascinating.

 

So fair enough.  Bach wrote music on instruments that he had at his disposal but is the essence of the music related to what it is played on or better yet, that it is played? 

 

If authenticity is the only means to an end then why stop at the harpsichord in general.  It should not be good enough just to play on a harpsichord but only on the very harpsichord that Bach composed on or played on and so on. 

 

Other examples of this might be for Chopin.  We all know that Chopin wrote almost exclusively for the piano but only rarely do we today go to the extreme of insisting his music is invalid unless it is played on a piano from his time such as the 1820’s, 1830’ or 1840’s.  The pianos of his period were still being developed and are quite different to those of today.  Today’s grand pianos largely are based on the pianos developed in the 1850’s and later where they finally came into there own.   Yet I personally do not feel robbed of any intrinsic musical meaning today playing Chopin on a modern grand piano.

 

I do not personally see any evidence that Bach himself would share many of these hard line views on what his music is played on.  The numerous transcriptions that Bach himself created over all the forms of his musical output certainly would contradict or cross the so-called line that some think exists.  I also see in many of my scores of keyboard music that he wrote introductions that focused on developing an inquisitive mind and cantabile playing all of which points to a man wanting us to enjoy this music.   Cantabile (meaning in a singing style) is not possible to play on a harpsichord.  Mostly though, I think Bach would have liked us to be aware of just how ingenious his music is – for his time and all time.  Without repeating myself too much please refer to my ideas on this from several years ago.

 

 Bach: "For Inquisitive Young Musicians"

 

So in the end I do not want anyone to discount the value of the harpsichord.  It has a truly historic value that needs to be respected and maintained.   Today though I really think it comes down to a personal choice.  I do not believe one is right and the other wrong.  I listen to both but the piano certainly outnumbers the harpsichord versions in my listening preference maybe 25 to 1. 

 

My main concern is to question why only claim the harpsichord as the only keyboard.  In German, the Klavier does not refer to a specific instrument – it refers to ALL keyboard instruments.  Secondly, Bach was German and it seems strange that the harpsichord (known more as the keyboard of French & English composers of the time) is viewed as the only keyboard of a German composer.  If I were to embrace the logic of those who argue for a particular instrument, my money would be on the organ or clavichord over the harpsichord as being the exclusive keyboard of a German composer but of course I do not espouse these views period.

 

Lastly, if it is of the utmost importance to only play Bach keyboard works on a harpsichord one has to ask whether even thinking about the music in your head is allowed.  Can I whistle a tune or sing in the shower or in the car on the way to work.  Yikes, I’m going to prison….

 

Really, it is true as said elsewhere that some music does not translate well onto other instruments.  In my very humble opinion though I find that his music is so strong and universal that I lose no connection with it in doing so.  In fact, (and I’m only being honest here) if there was no modern grand piano today the music of Bach would be nearly dead and unknown to most.  Today, the biggest argument among musicians seems to be between piano brands (Steinway vs. Fazioli vs.  ?).  It all relates to the sound that each person believes is ideal.  

 

I am looking forward to a good discussion about music and ideas you may have on this subject.

 

Best Regards,

Doug 

Posted on: 26 October 2014 by Bert Schurink

Very interesting write up and I agree. It's about the art and not about what is intended or limit it to what is intended. Intended does also not exist as the composer didn't have other instruments at his disposal at that point in time. So my only two requirements remain:

1. Does it sound for me attractive on the instrument which it's executed on ?

2. Is the artist playing it with the maximum musical insight ?

 

if both are answered with yes, I would buy the piece.

Posted on: 27 October 2014 by George J

Clearly the music of JS Bach is a high point in musical values, even arguably "the zenith" at least in terms of Western Art Music. 

 

Also it is clear that there absolutely no constraints on how performers may choose to perform the music.

 

We have the widest selection of performances ever on recordings, from the ultra-faithful efforts of the most earnest Historically Informed Performance type of players, to the other extreme of Wendy Carlos bringing the music out on a synthesiser. Between the two extremes is a performance type to suit almost anyone - certain so if they love the music in the first place.

 

However stylishness is not arbitrary, and never has been. It is a framework of guiding rules and sensibilities that when followed allow a sense of what the music is about, and something of what was intended by the composer. this applies to all music that is played by people who are not the composer of the music concerned. It applies as much to the music of Lenard Bernstein as to the music of Johan Sebastian Bach, for two notable examples with surnames beginning with the letter "B" ...

 

Style is something learned, usually from an exalted master musician performer who chooses to teach as well as perform, such as Alfred Brendel, or August Wenzinger. It is based on musical sensibility and and understanding of stylish performance practice. The academic study of such issues is called Musicology and has a long and august history. It is a rigorous study that is far from being arbitrary. 

 

In reality, to ignore this sort of study is the really arbitrary position to take. 

 

____________

 

With specific regard to the keyboard works of JS Bach it is clear that they fall into two distinct types. Those for the organ and those for the harpsichord, which may in many cases be reasonably performed on the very soft tone clavichord. In the case of the organ works, great composers have arranged this for the modern grand piano, such as Busoni's many arrangements including one real favourite of mine, The Saint Anne Prelude and Fugue in E flat, BWV 552.

 

As for performing music designed for the harpsichord on the modern piano, well why not? Some great players of piano have a phenomenal affinity for the music of Bach, and have left compelling recordings and given superb recitals of this music. 

 

Is the result anything that Bach intended? It cannot be because Bach never heard a piano that was remotely comparable with ones used by Mozart or Beethoven only decades later, and these are almost unrecognisable compared to the pianos of the modern era, such as the Beckstein, Steinway, and Playel.

 

The primary change in the piano since the time of Haydn and Mozart is the immense lengthening of the possible sustain, and loudest possible good tone. It is certainly true that Beethoven tormented his pianos with his demands for ever more volume of sound, but it is wrong to put too much onto that. His deafness eventually made it impossible for him to attempt public performances at the keyboard, most sadly.

 

______________

 

The cantabile marking. A mark used to indicate a singing tone or line.

 

Though it can be attempted on a percussive keyboard instrument, it is actually not strictly achievable on any instrument that cannot grow its tone after the beginning of the notes, such the winds and violin family of instruments. This applies as much to the piano as to the older harpsichord.

 

The dynamics of the piano and there harpsichord are achieved in different ways. Of course the harpsichord may be playing the louder eight foot string rank or the softer four foot rank. the loudest is the coupling of the two. Of course the absolute volume of sound [in any of these stop combinations] is given by the number of notes played in any time duration - notes per minute or second and the actual weight that the keys of a harpsichord only affects the brightness of the tone, and not [to any great degree] the dynamic of the individual note. 

 

The piano was a fundamental departure in that the volume of sound was directly related [for the first time on any keyboard instrument intended for playing in public] to the strength of attack on the keys. Thus the piano has only one rank of strings, and not two like a harpsichord.

 

At first - if you think about this - this would lead most people to consider the piano should oust all previous keyboard instruments, except possibly the organ.

 

But that would be wrong, if the music was conceived for the harpsichord. One of the traits of the music of JS Bach is an unfussy approach to dynamics, even on instruments like the violin family, the brass and the winds that can grow their tone after the start of the note, such that stylish performance resolves itself in what is called terraced dynamics. The crescendo is not part of Bach's normal expressive demands on performers. 

 

And it is intrinsic to the piano, and most pianists use it to the full. This is apt for music where the crescendo is an intended performing device. When used on music where it is not intended, except by increasing the number of notes in time, then it becomes a transformation. One may like this transformed music, but it has moved further from the original intention in the process. That is fair enough. Pianists are not banned by some Cast Iron Rule from playing music written for other instruments. 

 

But it interesting that pianists are the biggest critic of the harpsichord making assorts of claims that do not bare scrutiny. Neither the piano, nor the harpsichord can make a true cantabile. Both can simulate something close with legato playing and a very even touch. 

 

The harpsichord is exquisite at quiet music, such as the more reflective parts of the First Keyboard Partita [of Bach], and to claim otherwise is probably to demonstrate a lack of acquaintance with a such a performance as that of Helmut Walcha, or Robert Veron-Lacroix.

 

One specific example of a complete transformation of the music being more or less inevitable is the Prelude in E flat minor from the First Book of the well Tempered Clavier. Given the bold sweeping chords that permeate this music, it is clearly no shrinking violet, but a noble defiant piece that I would say contains a good deal of stoic bravery. It requires a regular and quite steady tempo or else it becomes disjointed. The sustain becomes a major factor. It is an example of Bach making the tempo clear, simply with the physical nature of the music. Stately, but not funereal.

 

Almost every pianist I know plays this music at a much slower speed, at an ultra-soft dynamic, and turns a defiant, stoical, and noble piece into something of a funeral lament.

 

One thing I am absolutely sure that Bach never it intended from it. If one listens to the Actus Tragicus, you will see that his ideas of funereal music is hardly the modern and romantic idea of gnashing of teeth, an sobbing, but a celebration of the life and of life itself.

 

If a person prefers Bach transformed in such a way as is managed on the piano, that is absolutely fine. 

 

Good for the person, but not something to call stylish in the absolute sense. 

 

ATB from George

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 31 October 2014 by Florestan

Thank you Bert and George for your comments and taking the time to respond.  Sadly, I have been burning the candle at both ends lately and just could not manage to keep up here.  

 

George, you have given a valuable well-reasoned response and this pleases me (whether I agree or not).  What actually caused me to start this thread was some gun slinging comments elsewhere that simply baffled me.  I would like to respond to a few points, one at a time, so as to try to make sense of this whole topic and what you are suggesting.

 

In the meantime, I propose a musical interlude as I desperately need one and wish to keep myself focused on the Musical Values rather than the Arbitrary Rules regarding a couple of referenced works.

 

 

1)  J.S. Bach: Prelude in E-flat minor, BWV 853, Das Wohltemperiert Klavier, Book 1:

 

A stylish, blessed example, (simply because it is played on a harpsichord?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ge&v=z5S_MxBZVWM

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=omseKpJaSm4

 

 

 

2) J.S. Bach: Partita No. 1 in B-flat major BWV:

 

A stylish, blessed example, (simply because it is played on a harpsichord?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=jHMDRFd2Xz4

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=-IeD0xW9404

 

 

 

3) Adagio after Marcello BWV 974 (a transcription by Bach):

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...71&v=BuIo8dtYyDM

 

 

 

4) J.S. Bach:  Prelude in B minor (as transcribed by Alexander Siloti)

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=Yu06WnXlPCY

 

 

 

5)  J.S. Bach:  Chaconne in D minor (from Partita II for Violin, BWV 1004 & transcribed by Busoni) 

 

 => egad and double gadzooks - Bach is surely rolling in his unfunereal grave by now!

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=Fu-9frVpssg

 

 

 

6) J.S. Bach:  transcription of the aria "Die Seele ruht in Jesu Händen" from Cantata BWV 127

 

=> egad and double gadzooks - this has crossed the line!  You should not enjoy music.  We should cut the hands off of every pianist who is destroying the world.

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=FQbFgKoE03Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=tEf8f_0ATFI

 

 

 

7)  J.S. Bach:  Prelude & Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 for organ compare to Liszt piano transcription

 

A stylish, blessed example, (simply because it is played on a organ?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?l...re=player_detailpage

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?l...re=player_detailpage

 

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=6_87EGT3UIw

 

 

 

This is but a pin drop of very special music that could keep me extremely happy for weeks on end.  Apologies for being a little sarcastic here at times.  My point is that I simply do not "racially profile" or "judge" music based on external criteria and then build fences around it to only let stylish concepts rule.  

 

Stylishness is based on opinion and can be used very flagrantly to dismiss others of there views.

 

What I would do without this music, I just do not know?  Music, for me, is about what is in your heart.  I could only presume that even J. S. Bach was human based on his musical output.

 

Always enjoy the music for what is is first and foremost.

 

Best Regards,

Doug

 

 

Posted on: 31 October 2014 by Florestan

Well, in a funny twist of fate as I was re-listening to the above musical examples I decided to go through my October 2014 Gramophone (that just came tonight - one month late).  I was reading the cover article on Angela Hewitt's new "The Art of Fugue" recording.  

 

I know this is only yet another opinion but it is the opinion of a very intelligent woman who actually CAN and DOES play the whole of Bach's keyboard music so I put extra faith in this as compared to a scholarly pundit who cannot even play one note.  If you would allow me I would like to quote two paragraphs from this article that will add some learned perspective to this discussion I think.

 

from Gramophone magazine (October 2014) and quoting Angela Hewitt and writer Philip Clark:

'I don't think of it as piano music,' Hewitt asserts, and I'm reassured.  'I feel, especially during the slow fugues, that it's vocal music.  I'd love to hear No 1 and 10 sung beautifully - and that's what I try to do with each line.  With some of the fugues, when I was beginning to work on them, I sang every voice in the tempo I wanted to play them at, and then marked in the breath.  I'm not thinking of the piano, but the instrument allows me to imitate the human voice and, elsewhere, an organ; an oboe; an orchestra.  The range of dynamics I can achieve is terrific.  Some of the fugues sound very effective on the harpsichord.  Bach designed the pieces with contrasting countersubjects.  He does things with the spacing of voicings that are intelligible on a monochrome instrument.  But on a piano you're actually able to distinguish different voices - the piano can make this music sing.'

 

The argument persists, though, that the piano - and especially the equally tempered modern grand - makes Bach's music sing in a way that he never intended.  Harpsichords pluck strings; pianos hammer them.  'But this is why the piano was invented,' Hewitt counters.  'In his last years he tried the fortepiano and became very interested in it and The Musical Offering was written with the instrument in mind.  A keyboard instrument that could properly sing?  He'd have loved that.  I don't buy the argument that you must play Bach's music on the instrument it was written for.'  But what about Trevor Pinnock's unavoidably brilliant 1979 recording of the Goldberg Variations, where compositional nuts-and-bolts, tuning and keyboard mechanism are all heard singing from the same hymn sheet?  'He makes it come alive, great, but that doesn't mean that the piano can't offer other possibilities.  Couperin wrote dedicated harpsichord music; Scarlatti's music demands that harpsichords clang.  But Bach remade violin concertos as keyboard concertos - and then the same material turns up vocally.  His music had a different relationship to ideas of instrumentation.'

 

Precisely and this is also what I maintain.  Did Bach compose only to handcuff us centuries later to a specific instrument.  There is nothing wrong with still preferring the Harpsichord but that is not what the essence of the music is about to me.  It is not about the sound either.  In this day and age, there are some mighty fine pianos around and they are keyboards that can do an excellent and pleasing job in allowing musicians and listeners alike the opportunity to share in this exceptional music.

 

Regards,

Doug

Posted on: 31 October 2014 by George J

Great piano playing on the instrument the music was intended for, and not surprisingly, rather fine!

 

J-M Pires plays Chopin Waltzes ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziKWfnvsgiM

 

I doubt that anyone would try this on a harpsichord ...

 

ATB from George

 

PS: No sarcasm intended. As soon as I saw your sarcastic intent I gave up on your possible reasonableness. I am serious. Bach can only be hinted at [and no more] on the piano just as Chopin might be hinted at on the harpsichord [but harpsichord players have more taste and sense then to try what pianists perpetrate all too regularly] - neither composer's music is exactly at its best when performed on the wrong instrument.

 

PPS: By leaving me no diplomatic wiggle room with your sarcasm, you force me to be direct. Pianists only ruin the music of Bach. No way to agree to disagree in my view after your post, and so I say directly that you are profoundly wrong, without sarcasm, and leaving you no wiggle room either, so perhaps you best put me on your ignore list.

 

PPPS: When Bach recomposed music he changed it. The Harpsichord Concertos - where they are parodies of existing Violin Concertos - are rhythmically changed to suit the new arrangement with also many extra notes for the harpsichord, different rhythms not only in the solo part, but the orchestra also. Only a cursory glance of the music would reveal that in the cases where the originals exist of both. To suggest otherwise - based on the original scores - is to display an ignorance of the source, and subject. And devalues your attempted point.

Posted on: 31 October 2014 by CFMF
Originally Posted by Florestan:

Thank you Bert and George for your comments and taking the time to respond.  Sadly, I have been burning the candle at both ends lately and just could not manage to keep up here.  

 

George, you have given a valuable well-reasoned response and this pleases me (whether I agree or not).  What actually caused me to start this thread was some gun slinging comments elsewhere that simply baffled me.  I would like to respond to a few points, one at a time, so as to try to make sense of this whole topic and what you are suggesting.

 

In the meantime, I propose a musical interlude as I desperately need one and wish to keep myself focused on the Musical Values rather than the Arbitrary Rules regarding a couple of referenced works.

 

 

1)  J.S. Bach: Prelude in E-flat minor, BWV 853, Das Wohltemperiert Klavier, Book 1:

 

A stylish, blessed example, (simply because it is played on a harpsichord?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ge&v=z5S_MxBZVWM

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=omseKpJaSm4

 

 

 

2) J.S. Bach: Partita No. 1 in B-flat major BWV:

 

A stylish, blessed example, (simply because it is played on a harpsichord?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=jHMDRFd2Xz4

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=-IeD0xW9404

 

 

 

3) Adagio after Marcello BWV 974 (a transcription by Bach):

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...71&v=BuIo8dtYyDM

 

 

 

4) J.S. Bach:  Prelude in B minor (as transcribed by Alexander Siloti)

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=Yu06WnXlPCY

 

 

 

5)  J.S. Bach:  Chaconne in D minor (from Partita II for Violin, BWV 1004 & transcribed by Busoni) 

 

 => egad and double gadzooks - Bach is surely rolling in his unfunereal grave by now!

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=Fu-9frVpssg

 

 

 

6) J.S. Bach:  transcription of the aria "Die Seele ruht in Jesu Händen" from Cantata BWV 127

 

=> egad and double gadzooks - this has crossed the line!  You should not enjoy music.  We should cut the hands off of every pianist who is destroying the world.

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=FQbFgKoE03Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=tEf8f_0ATFI

 

 

 

7)  J.S. Bach:  Prelude & Fugue in A minor, BWV 543 for organ compare to Liszt piano transcription

 

A stylish, blessed example, (simply because it is played on a organ?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?l...re=player_detailpage

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?l...re=player_detailpage

 

 

An un-stylish, funereal example of blasphemy (judged so simply because it is played on a modern grand piano?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=6_87EGT3UIw

 

 

 

This is but a pin drop of very special music that could keep me extremely happy for weeks on end.  Apologies for being a little sarcastic here at times.  My point is that I simply do not "racially profile" or "judge" music based on external criteria and then build fences around it to only let stylish concepts rule.  

 

Stylishness is based on opinion and can be used very flagrantly to dismiss others of there views.

 

What I would do without this music, I just do not know?  Music, for me, is about what is in your heart.  I could only presume that even J. S. Bach was human based on his musical output.

 

Always enjoy the music for what is is first and foremost.

 

Best Regards,

Doug

 

 

I am going to be blunt here. When anyone claims, that certain music can only be properly conveyed on an archaic instrument that many people find somewhat annoying, I simply must disagree.

It's that kind of "high brow" attitude, that prevents so many people from venturing into the classical music genre in the first place. And that is a shame.

I know it intimidated me when I was younger. Then I recognized their low self esteem issues for what they were, and moved on.

 

BBM 

Posted on: 31 October 2014 by Florestan

Now now George, please do not be angry with me.  I realize that humour can be tricky and not everyone shares the same subtleties in the same way.  This was not my intention so please forgive my lack of judgement occasionally.

 

My real intent was to show that it is the same music where I compared two versions.  The music moves me the same way in either case and so I posit that this is the crux of the matter.  If I am only concerned about the medium (the instrument) then what about the music?  Does it not matter the most?

 

It matters to me!  I am very happy that anyone would choose the harpsichord, or organ, or piano... whatever suits their fancy.  It is not for me to worry about this as I would rather talk about the music than sully the musical ambition or discussion by insisting that a piano is not an option - period.  I'm here to promote interest in music and not limit it by rules.

 

I do not believe Bach's wonderful musical output would be known today by musical enthusiasts if a modern grand piano did not exist.  You see it is tied to the instrument that most people have in there homes today.  For many centuries now harpsichords have not outsold pianos.  It is the other way around.  For most people the connection and love of music comes from actually learning and playing this music yourself.  What you keep implying is that the keyboardist of the world should simply stop playing Bach because you think Bach would come out swinging with this same rule?  I cannot say but if this is the case then this really is a sad sad world.

 

Regards,

Doug

 

Posted on: 31 October 2014 by George J

Dear doug,

 

I don't advocate that Bach should stop being played on the piano tomorrow, but rather that pianists should stop promoting the bogus view that the piano is better than the harpsichord for Bach's harpsichord music. The piano will do in the absence of of a handy harpsichord, but that is as far as it goes ...

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 31 October 2014 by kuma

George,

 

Which do you prefer?

 

Edwin Fischer on piano or Landowska ( sounds like a wooden soldier ) on cembalo?

 

Now I do not care much for the sound of harpsichord but I am finding out it depends on who plays it and how it's played it can sound very refreshing over a piano. ( again depends on who plays it )

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by EJS
The question of piano vs harpsichord usually is one of historical accuracy vs modernity, isn't it? In my mind I wouldn't see the late Frans Bruggen or Gustav Leonhardt defend anything other than Bach's own instruments for his music, and not purely for musical reasons. That dogmatic view has all but come and gone in today's early music scene.

On a musical level, I must admit I have trouble with listening to Bach's more vocally oriented works on harpsichord for a length of time (WTC, Partitas, AotF). But the 'simpler' stuff like the English suites work very well on harpsichord (Pierre Hantai's recent recording is brilliant) - and some of the best performances of this music on piano don't venture too far from the monochrome idiom (e.g. Ashkenazy's new recording of Bach's two big keyboard suites called the French overture and the Italian concerto).
EJ
Posted on: 01 November 2014 by George J
Originally Posted by kuma:

George,

 

Which do you prefer?

 

Edwin Fischer on piano or Landowska ( sounds like a wooden soldier ) on cembalo?

 

Now I do not care much for the sound of harpsichord but I am finding out it depends on who plays it and how it's played it can sound very refreshing over a piano. ( again depends on who plays it )

Dear Kuma,

 

Edwin Fischer of course!

 

But Landowska almost did for the harpsichord at the very time of its re-birth as a useful instrument.

 

She had Playel made the monster she used, and a proper harpsichord it is not. Basically it was a piano that plucked, whereas the structure of the harpsichord is much lighter and more subtle. So her instrument really did clang! Fortunately the Playel type harpsichord is now consigned to the dust-bin of history!

 

ATB from George

 

 

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by Morton

Bach did not specify an instrument for the Art of Fugue & I have heard it on harpsichord, organ, string quartet & piano, all of which are fine by me.

I think Bach would have been amazed to know that his music would still being listened to more than 250 years after his death & I doubt very much if he would worry too much about which instrument it was played on.

For me personally, I find the harpsichord hard work & generally prefer the piano for Bach.

 

“The sound of a harpsichord – two skeletons copulating on a tin roof in a thunderstorm”

Thomas Beecham

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by George J

“The sound of a harpsichord – two skeletons copulating on a tin roof in a thunderstorm”

Thomas Beecham

 

One must consider the timeline for Beecham's comment. It was made at a time when Landowska was pioneering the harpsichord revival on her special Playel instrument. Her work was pioneering and yet almost killed off the revival with that instrument.

 

Concerning the Playel harpsichord then Beecham's comment may well be seen as apt.

 

In the interval of time since, it is now easy to find great performances on superb instruments, old and new, that sound nothing like Beecham's description of Landowska's instrument.

 

Perpetuating an old and legendary comment as if it applies to good harpsichords today is a shame in my view.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by Morton

I’m sure you are right, modern harpsichords are far better than the ones which Thomas Beecham would have heard.

However, I still find that the basic lack of variation of sound of the harpsichord does, for me, engender a certain monotony to the music, which is not there in piano performances by someone as good as Angela Hewitt.

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by George J

Harpsichords - at least the best ones - similarly to the organ have a rather wider range of tone variables than the piano which has only a dynamic variability.

 

Consider two manuals, which though they can play the most of the same notes actually have a different tonal quality and weight. Add in that this can then be augmented with a third variable of coupling the two manuals together to a get a different tone again. Then consider the Lute-work stop, which can be used on one manual while the other is used with the normal stop tone, or on its own for contrast to the normal stop. This emulates the tone of a Lute being played ...

 

Yes the harpsichord has a wider tonal palette than the piano, though this perhaps under-used by some players, but I assure you that is can make a lovely tonal basis for music, and is employed effectively by some. Not least by Helmut Walcha.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by kuma
“The sound of a harpsichord – two skeletons copulating on a tin roof in a thunderstorm”
Thomas Beecham

Originally Posted by George J:
One must consider the timeline for Beecham's comment. It was made at a time when Landowska was pioneering the harpsichord revival on her special Playel instrument. Her work was pioneering and yet almost killed off the revival with that instrument.

You can say that again!
I got a bunch of her records (for historical study ) and they really were testing my nerve...Copulating skeletons would be the kindest description of them. :/

A Piano has a wider dynamic range and contrasts to express emotional bits out of the music better than a mostly tone'n'textures harpsichord. 

Bach's music is so powerful in itself that it doesn't matter what instruments they are used, ( ok, maybe not a bag pipe or Landowska's Playel ) so long as executed to appeal to my spirit.

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by Haim Ronen

Musical pieces played as specified by the composer are always important to me, becoming a reference point to other arrangements and use of modern instruments.

 

Before exploring any other piano versions of Goldberg Variations (beyond Gould's piano) I made sure to familiarize myself with a harpsichord performance of the music. On the same token, I feel guilty of having three versions of Handel's keyboard suites, all played on the piano and none on the original instrument. Something will have to be done about it real soon (SophieYates?).

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by George J

Dear Haim,

 

The Naxos recording of the Handel Harpsichord Suites played by Alan Cuckston are rather fine, and not expensive to get either!

 

I agree that the proper instruments for any given piece of music is a reference, and indeed I would not denigrate anyone enjoying and even preferring performances on the wrong instruments provided they do not make the claim that the wrong instruments are more suitable as a general recommendation. 

 

When it comes to performances on the anachronistic piano in Bach and Handel, I have some very much loved recordings of these by Edwin Fischer for example, but I remember to set these into a context of what was intended by the composers themselves as well from others on the harpsichord.

 

ATB from George

 

 

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by George J

PS: I rather like the earthy strength of Cuckston's performances ... in the parallel between Handel with Bach and Haydn with Mozart. Handel and Haydn certainly usually compose in a wonderfully robust style, while Bach and Mozart were more sublimated in effect in most cases.

 

All of it is music of immense strength.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by AndyPat

Doug,

I strongly concur with your analysis. Far too often people forget that music evolves, even an individual work. It is no longer the sole preserve of the composer. And indeed the composer probably had an evolving view of their own work. Why on earth would Bach not want his works to improve as instruments became better? 

I still remember thinking at school that Shakespeare was twoddle. Just needed to see it performed in modern day speech and suddenly it made sense. Well modern anything to be frank (Throne of Blood in Japanese with english subtitles had me riveted). 

I do like the sound of a harpsichord but a piano, of any shade, trumps it.  I think Bach would have loved the opportunity to use a Yamaha electronic keyboard, so why shouldn't it be acceptable for musicians to interpret Bachs intentions without artificial barriers being imposed by others.

 

Andy

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by George J

Dear Andy,

 

What evolves is performance style and practice - sometimes for the good and sometimes not. The musical works are both as durable as the human race, and immutable.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by AndyPat

George,  my post was addressed to, and intended for, Doug. You have previously, incorrectly, assumed that one of my posts was aimed at you. Seeing that you were on this thread I tried to avoid a repetition. I can but apologise if I have interrupted one of your conversations. I shall depart stage left.

 

Andy

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by George J

Dear Andy,

 

It may well be on a thread started by Doug, but a public internet board thread is not a private conversation between posters and the opening poster alone.

 

That is what email is for. 

 

When you write something that is certainly open to discussion with varying positions then expect your comment to be challenged from any interested quarter.

 

Depart or not is your decision.

 

I am sure Doug will replay to your post if he is interested.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 01 November 2014 by naim_nymph
 
“The sound of a harpsichord – two skeletons copulating on a tin roof in a thunderstorm”

Thomas Beecham

 

 

 

In my humble opinion the harpsichord sound is clear, crisp, and detailed against a grand piano's tonally lush warmth, rather like comparing black and white photographs to colour.

I'm rather fond of both.

Angela Hewitt's JSB complete solo keyboard recordings on 15 CDs is one of my favourite box-sets which i return to, and enjoy.

Used to wonder why the Aof was not included in this set until last month on release of the fairly new Angela version i am made aware again that the AoF on piano can be made to sound awkward and lost in tonal murk, some tunes really do benefit from a well tempered harpsichord's steely tone and ambiance, skeletons do sometimes come in very handy : )

 

Debs

Posted on: 02 November 2014 by Florestan

I actually had intended to post this in the What Are You Listening to and Why section this morning but it just evolved enough that I cut it from there as these random thoughts are entirely appropriate for this topic too.

 

This morning while listening to the following recording:

Johann Sebastian Bach: Jaime Laredo (violin), Leonard Rose (cello), Glenn Gould (piano)

 

Sonatas for Violin & Harpsichord BWV 1014-1019

3 Sonatas for Viola Da Gamba & Harpsichord

 

I have been thinking about instruments vs. music a lot lately trying to sort this out in my mind.  I can tell you though what goes on in my home and head (typically) though.  I can understand the historical context first and foremost - (i.e.. respecting the original intent of the composer ).  I own and listen to many fine examples of these works in that sense.  Today it so happens that I am listening to this in a different context (changing an intended keyboard) and despite the landscape change in sound palette there is still a strong sense of familiarity or of being at home.  It is the melody, the patterns, the interplay of instruments that is going on in my head that brings me so much satisfaction and the reason I listen to music.  So all is well so far.

 

But then I get to the F minor Adagio (BWV 1018) in particular and I go in to sensory overload.  The reason I suspect is that I have played this on the piano (sans violin) and so the personal connection is streaming through my blood and causing a multitude of emotion that does not exist for me in music that I have only ever just listened to.  Once this happens I cannot think of anything else.  Music in the background no longer exists.  

 

I have only to thank Alexander Siloti for creating this fine piano transcription in 1927.  So while I am fully aware of and agree about the historical integrity of this music I am now moving into territory where I am removed two degrees beyond the original starting point into a strange territory that some might find unforgivable or sacrilege at the very least.

 

What is evident to me though is the grip that takes one over when you involve yourself in the process and I believe this the same passion that has compelled composers and musicians over the centuries to honour other composers with and through their transcriptions of works.  Many still may find this act to cross the line of acceptable received style and taste.

 

Listening to this Adagio, I have been well aware of its gravity and profoundness from the first time I heard it but the ideas and symbolism within the music took off exponentially when I began working on the Siloti transcription.  Yes, I listened intently to every recording I had (harpsichord and piano versions) and I realized quickly that the piano is not a harpsichord and the piano is not a violin.  So yes this new rendering is different without a doubt but behind this though is the essence of the music that takes you to a place so special that is doesn't seem to matter anymore.  Going through the different keys and experiencing the interplay between these two voices gave me ideas of meaning and interpretation that I had not seen before.  Yes, the meaning that I created from this may be pure guff to anyone else but in between my four walls and in my head it makes sense and gives me great satisfaction starting the second I hear the first note of this movement.  These ideas guide my resulting interpretation.  

 

Another listener may or may not agree.  This is why I have come to terms over the years of defending any and all interpretations (despite the fact that I don't agree with many).  The reason is obvious and that stems to the fact that opinions need freedom to move.  A judgement against opinion seems indefensible and we have to allow and accept opinions and be respectful of others different tastes.  Somewhere in all this chaos of opinion though we find where we fit and are comfortable and then move in that direction. 

 

Regards,

Doug