Vinyl Box Set re-issues

Hi Kuma,

Classic Records, well known and regarded audiophile re-issue label. (200g Quiex SVP Vinyl to quote the blurb) I will have to go hunting through my collection which is a bit disorganised at the moment as i'm renovating , but a few off the top of my head are
John Coltrane - Blue Train

Sonny Clark- Cool Struttin

Horace Parlan - On The Spur Of The Moment

Kenny Dorham- Afro Cuban
I will have to go rummage for the other titles

Thanks Sam,

I don't have any copy of this title at the moment. I am a Nick Cave neophyte but have recently enjoyed Grinderman, Dig Lazarus Dig and Push The Sky Away all on vinyl as well as the songs on the BBC Peaky Blinders programme. I am becoming more interested in Nick Cave music, hence my interest in the new vinyl re-issues and to hear from informed people who are familiar with these records as to whether these re-issues are worthwhile.

I am not overly techy so will be interested if you could enlighten me further as to what is Foobar etc to which you refer.
Thanks

Hi Kuma,

Classic Records, well known and regarded audiophile re-issue label. (200g Quiex SVP Vinyl to quote the blurb) I will have to go hunting through my collection which is a bit disorganised at the moment as i'm renovating , but a few off the top of my head are John Coltrane - Blue Train

Sonny Clark- Cool Struttin

Horace Parlan - On The Spur Of The Moment

Kenny Dorham- Afro Cuban I will have to go rummage for the other titles

Just thinking out loud here, I read on the MM website that they upgraded the mastering facility with Audioquest cabling. This rang a little alarm in my head as I recall many many many moons ago my Audio dealer lending me a big box of Audioquest cables and gizmos to experiment with in my system (which at the time was (LP12 Ekos Klyde - Ion Systems -Naim Intro). Every cable in the box which included the entire Audioquest range at the time made my system sound worse, in some cases robbing the system of detail and in others introducing unnatural colourations. I enjoyed my music most after returning the demo box.

Richard - Foobar or more precisely foobar2000 is a free software audio player that is quite versatile. 

Among other things it accepts a plugin which gives a reasonable quantification of a recording's dynamic range (DR), thus the DR numbers I referenced. The scale runs from 1 to 20. The higher the better, at least for listening to music on our nice Naim systems.

Lots of information on the web if you Google (again I can't seem to insert a link):

- foobar2000

- dynamicrange.de (then the free downloads section for the DR plug in)

- Dynamic Range Database

- Loudness wars

Back to Nick - you seem to enjoy a variety of his recent output. Grinderman and Dig .. are quite different to Push the Sky Away so if you like all of these then I suspect you will like much from his back catalogue. My personal favorite is The Boatman's Call along with most of the early 'demented blues' albums, plus recently Push the Sky Away (vinyl also). But it is all good, to me. Spotify has most, if not all of his output, so could be worthwhile having a listen there. And as I previously mentioned, from reading the Steve Hoffman forum it appears the other vinyl titles have been generally positively received.

As an aside, it is really only Abattoir that suffers from very poor CD mastering. Some of his other CDs, particularly Boatman's, sound terrific.

Enjoy

Sam

This is a nice SQ 2014 vinyl box set.

Richard,

Yes it was a concern of mine, too as I had not so great Audioquest cabling experience in the past but they have done more than the cable upgrade. I would assume that the lower noise floor factor on the new 33s was partly attributed from the use of fancy cables. 

Here is a quote from Joe Harley has to say about it from AA site:

"...You ask a good question regarding Kevin's earlier mastering at 45 and later mastering of 33 of certain BN titles for Music Matters. We start with the master tape in both cases. Kevin does NOT use an "earlier mastering" ... it's done entirely again 

What people seem to be hearing when comparing our 33s to 45s is that Kevin's own cutting system has improved from when he was using the system at Record Tech. His own electronics and all of the wiring in the mastering suite has improved dramatically from the early days of BN cutting at Acoustech. Now ... if Kevin was to recut one of the later sessions done at 45 (at his new facility at Cohearent) at 33 then the 45 would probably be superior since the only thing that would be changing would be the speed of cutting. 

So the answer to your question is: it all depends. When we are cutting a new 33 that we cut at 45 seven years ago then the difference in the cutting system may well make the 33 superior. If we are cutting a 33 from a recent 45 (unlikely since there would be no point) then the 45 would still rule. Good question."

You have to listen to both to decide which pressing you prefer as there is no account for subjectivity.

I do have several Classics reissues 33s and in a quick AB ( Somethin' Else, Moanin' Cool Struttin') that they have a different instrument balance as they should due to different mastering engineers. ( Bernie Grundman vs Kevin Gray: and in case of MM 45s,  Steve Hofmann also was credited along side KG )

We are all a bit cynical about all these reissues but the MM 33 rpm  seems to be a real deal. ( and a bit of a bargain considering poorly manufactured Classic Records 200g Cool Struttin' sells for 40$USD. )

Thanks again for taking the time Kuma. I agree wholeheartedly re subjectivity and I believe that it is also very much system dependent. Witness why some audiophiles prefer a certain pressing on their replay system to another who prefers a different pressing on a different replay system. As well as the EQ preferences etc of the mastering engineer, assuming reasonable transparency back to the source, the equipment used in the mastering process will inevitably introduce a degree of its own sonic signature/colouration which will have synergy with some systems better than others.

I am surprised with your comment regarding a poorly manufactured Classic Records pressing of Cool Struttin. mine is excellent along with all the other re-issues I have from them, not just the Blue Notes.

Anyway I am going to definitely check out Music Matters and have already emailed Lori at MM. Diverse Vinyl who I use a lot have some titles in stock so plan to get one or two from them and if I like what I hear then make a larger order direct. Any particular titles you would recommend for starters?

Cheers and wishing you a happy and musical new year

Thanks Sam, I forgot Live From KCRW which I am also enjoying and sounds pretty good to my ears for a live radio recording. Yes have been "saving" Nick Caves back catalogue on Spotify just to get an idea but only listening to the lo-fi free version on headphones/laptop.
All the best for 2015

The LP must have a different mastering, perhaps as per the original release. Although not audiophile it is nevertheless an enjoyable listen vs. the CD. 

Sam, its just occurred to me an explanation as why you are hearing an improvement on the LP. Its is quite likely that the LP has been mastered from digital but without digital compression similar to the Beatles stereo box set which despite its bad rap I found to be quite acceptable (but nowhere near the Monos). This might explain the higher DR values for the vinyl. Another common factor is that the Nick Cave re-issues have been cut at Abbey Road.

Cheers

I wonder if you both have very different systems?

Richard,

Get a MM 33 rpm in the same title as their 45 RPM. So if you already have the Undercurrent in 45, get the 33 and compare it.  Somethin' Else in Stereo if you have it on Classic Records, that would be good, too as MM's 33 rpm is also in Stereo. I was not keeping track of Analogue Production's Blue Note reissues closely as they were mostly 45 rpm. The only title I have on Analogue Production 45RPM is the Maiden Voyage which I will compare when the MM 33 copy shows up. I know there are a few overlap between Classic Records and Analogue Productions titles. 

A comparison between MM 33 and MM45 rpm, improvements in clarity and dynamics were easier to hear  as the instrument balance does not change between two pressings.

Classic Records pressing's balance is different ( at least in 2 titles I have compared ) so you might prefer it altho, again, the clarity and immediacy, particularly for percussive instruments, are much better on the MM 33 rpm. and that's hard to ignore.

I have listened Undercurrent in my office system comprised of LP12-ARO-Lingo/52/300/Wilson Audio Watt 6.

Other titles are listened in a LP12-ARO-'Geddon/552/500/Briks system as this system lacks a 45 playback capability.

I am not certain if the outcome would be different if I used different systems made up with different hardware and speakers as usually the same sonic traits manifest themselves.

I have the 200g 33 rpm Classic Records Cool Struttin'. My copy has a slight off center hole and I should have returned it. I have read that they were having a production issue with later 200g reissues as their press was not optimally setup for heavier vinyl. If you have the 180g 33 RPM, it might be better but they were all OOP by the time I was looking for the copy. Their 45 rpm sounded good to me but I did not compare it to the MM 33 rpm. I might borrow a copy from my friend.

Sounds like you have won a reissue lottery!

My history with recent reissues are often series of *expensive* disappointment as many are plagued with poor production quality and lack of QC. ( I had the worst luck with classical music reissues )

I dug out my copy of Cool Struttin and its 180g.

Richard,

That's nice!

So go get your MM33 and report back which sounds better.

Thats' the only way you'll know.

Or enjoy what you have as it is not a bad reissue. 

Hi Kuma,

Couldn't find many titles readily available in stock here, only these 33rpm's
Tina Brooks - True Blue

Joe Henderson - Page One

Art Blakey & Jazz Messengers - Moanin
So have just received a copy of Moanin' from Redspark music by way of a sampler, will be giving this a few spins at the weekend, have you heard the other titles above?

Richard

Richard,

I thought you are going to pick up the 33 title you have on the 45 so that you can compare.

Out of the one you've listed, I have the Moanin' in MM33 and Classic Records 33. No Brooks or Henderson.

Looking forward to your impression on the MM33 Moanin'.

btw,  Hankock's 'Maiden Voyage' MM33 sounds the best so far beating out both Japanese and AP 45 reissues.  

@ Kuma & Richard or anyone else interested in the Music Matters 33rpm series you might find this of interest.

https://londonjazzcollector.wo...m/author/jazzoholic/

Regards Graham.

Graham.

Thanks for the link. But I knew that already.

Interesting that he reports Japanese reissue muddy and congested. I found the same with Japanese Maiden Voyage. Dynamically dead and the balance is a sort of an 'odd man out' compared to MM, AP or OJC pressings.

The real test is listening to yourself. For Undercurrent, I very much doubt you can do much better than the MM33.

Kuma,

I think you may have misunderstood me somewhere along the line, I don't currently have any Music Matters 33 or 45. I do have a number of Classic Records titles including Cool Struttin & Undercurrent which I enjoy.
I was restricted by the few titles I could find available locally, I am very familiar with the music on Moanin' although my only reference is an early EMI Blue Note (mastered from original analog tapes says the sticker) which I think is digitised and a standard cd re-issue.
I was immediately struck by the clarity and almost walk in sound of the MM, this is going to sound like a reviewers cliché but I felt like I could reach out and touch Lee Morgans trumpet he was felt to be so out in the room that my speakers dissolved, likewise Bobby Timmons Piano which was fully presented left of stage, I heard Art Blakeys drum kit like never before, I could easily discern between the different drums and the Prat in my system was tested beautifully. I could hear Art Blakey positioned slightly further back in the room and to the right of centre, Jamie Merrits Bass was full clear and tuneful positioned a little in front and to the right of Art Blakey with Benny Golson front of stage to the right.
It sounds like I am making a big deal of the imagery here but the musicality was involving from the off and found myself seductively drawn in. My system isn't one that is normally tops when it comes to soundstaging but this surprised me.
The sleeve is beautifully presented with period photographs and the vinyl pressing is almost totally silent and perfectly flat. The only slight issue I encountered were some occasional low frequency "thumps" which may be some disturbance on the master tape or perhaps something was too closely miked (I only noticed it through side one)

Richard,

I assume your Undercurrent was by MM 45. I was not aware that Classic Records reissued that in the past. Hence the confusion.

I assume that all of Classic Records have the *Grundman* balance opposed to *Kevin Gray* balance. Have you noticed on your Classic Records 'Moanin''?  

Over the weekend we had a house party and I played mostly Music Matters albums and towards the end I played several different Maiden Voyage pressing demos amongst friends to compare. ( subjecting unassuming civilians to hifi wankery can be entertaining )

My friend who's not an audiophile but an old timer who played with Johnny Griffin and knew some of jazz giants from the past ) immediately caught on the MM sounded like horn player was in the room.

'Walk in sound' as you call it is what I love about them. It is pretty acute in 'Monin'. That spooky feel that someone is in the room with you. Or the feeling of you just walked in to their recording session. I was stunned when I first heard their Cool Struttin' for its life like dynamics and speed. 

btw, which cut from Moanin' you hear the 'thumps'? I did not noticed it.

Is it possible that your turntable might be  too close to speakers and getting an acoustic feedback?

My understanding is that MM deliberately did not apply any limiter to all of their remastered LPs. 

Have you noticed on your Classic Records 'Moanin''?
I don't think I have a copy of Moanin on Classic but my record collection is about to get sorted with some new storage units, there all over the place! So I will check and see. Otherwise as I said before my only LP reference is an earlier EMI/BlueNote which despite the sleeve sticker proclaiming mastered from original analog tapes I think was done digitally.

I noticed the "thumps" throughout the cuts on side one, I was listening with eyes shut and it was sufficient to momentarily jolt my attention.
My record player is an LP12/Trampolin/Lingo2/Ekos/Dynavector 17D3/Prefix/Hicap on an original Sound Organisation stand, I don't suspect any problems with acoustic feedback.

I am having my IXO crossover serviced by Naim so my system will be out of action for a short while but will revisit this when I get it back
Cheers Kuma

Thanks for the link Graham

I can sympathise with vinyl being all over the place. I still have a stack of LPs I haven't even gone through.

I am not familiar with EMI/Blue Note release. It must be European in which case then they probably did not have an access to the original analogue tapes. I have learnt that so far many *lies* on marketing reissues. It is not regulated so it seems free for all for advertising. 

I did not notice any *thump* noise on 'Moanin' but bass line through out the tune runs pretty deep. I'll listen again to see what it is that you have heard. The voice on the intro of that tune is spooky, isn't it?

Yes its a nice touch keeping the studio chatter in at the start adds to the sense of realism.
Well my IXO has gone in for a service and I have loaned a similar vintage NAP250 while my usual system is down. No thumps or other extraneous noises now, so don't know what I was hearing before, will see/hear when I get the IXO back and service my 90's.
Enjoying this pressing of Moanin immensely
Richard

Richard, 

That's wonderful.

Going back to the original topic, avoid this one!