Spotify

With respect bill there is enough threads on this already even on the first page, did you do a search or even like look at the forum as you clicked for a new thread?

For me 320k is not enough.  I did run Spotify through my main system for a short time, and it's not offensive by any means, even pretty good in the grand scale of things vs similar services.  For discovery and background music I think it's fine, in the same way that Naim and Linn radio are fine for me.  That said, I no longer use Spotify, Qobuz offers everything Spotify offered me, and the audio quality is just fantastic.  The key difference between the two is that I can sit down and seriously listen to an album using Qobuz, with Spotify I can only evaluate whether I want to listen to it properly.

Big Bill, indeed there are other Spotify clients around, and the Sonos one which is being discussed elsewhere is rather nice to use. However Naim appear to have taken the approach of defining thier equipment as a Spotify Connect end point. This uses the Apple Bonjour discovery and communication protocols. By doing this Naim have left all the client design to Spotify, and Naim simply appear as a Spotify Connect 'speaker' to the Spotify Connect app. It keeps things simple for Naim, but perhaps makes harder to integrate other services in the future.

Finally Spotify does not use MP3, nor AAC, but uses a format called Ogg Vorbis. Arguably this is said to provide a better performance for a given bandwidth than MP3. To me they do sound different but still lossy and rounded - so I couldn't honestly say one sounded better than the other. I agree after a while these lossy formats just start to irritate for anything other than low level background music. But I am told some can't hear any difference between lossy and lossless. (Lucky them!) I can only assume it's because we all hear things differently.

Simon

I find it's not A/B comparisons that illustrate any shortcomings of 320 but extended listening.  Everything has a sort of 'synthetic sheen' which irritates after a while.

Listening to the 'Stones 'Black and Blue' streamed lossless via Qobuz last night was very impressive. If I can have a world of music of that audio quality at my fingertips then I'm in!

I wish Naim would give us a roadmap of future intentions as the competition is moving ahead.

G

Yup I did a Search on Spotify and so much stuff came back - mainly from the days before NAIM made it available on their kit - that it was just about useless.  And yes I did browse around.

Sorry didn't mean to get the Police out.

When people say 'With respect' you always know that they don't really mean it.

Wat I have seen adds for iPads where they say how wonderful their speakers compared to the opposition.

I made no reference to consumer rights and support!  I just mentioned their dreadful record in the Third World where they time after time break their own 'Apple Promises'.

Songstream, Simon & GrameH thank you for actually responding to my post and not trying to score cheap points.

Yup I understood once I got it working that Spotify was using the NAIM box as an output device.  I would have preferred a simple interface, a la my WD box, which is simple to use.  I think the Spotify interface is truly awful, they have made it too complex for what it actually does - but that is my take on it.

Songstream & Graeme the point you make about extended listening really hits the nail on the head.  I can sit down and listen to my UnitiLite playing 16 or 24 bit FLAC downloads for hours with no listener fatigue at all.  I do not think I can say the same about Spotify.

I had meant to put a post up about Qobuz V's Spotify before I shelled out ma 99p but as they both appeared to 320k mp3 downloads I didn't bother.  That decision may have cost me 99p!

So how exactly does Qobuz sound better? or am I missing something?

Qobuz offers two services. It's standard service which is equivalent to Spotify premium, both provide 320kps MP3 /,Ogg Vorbis respectively and both cost normally £10 per month I believe.

Qobuz additionally has a Qobuz Hifi service which offers 16/44.1 FLAC streams. This is charged at £20 per month. The streams here, to all intents and purposes, are the same as locally streamed FLAC from your NAS containing your CD rips - abeit  you need to use a front end like Sonos to connect to your Naim currently. So if FLAC sounds better than MP3 to you then you will appreciate what Qobuz is able to offer.

Simon

Yeah I realised that Simon but Qobuz, as you say, is not in the NAIM line up.  Which is a shame!

But thanks, I did not know that Qobuz offered this higher level service.  Why didn't NAIM go in that direction?  Does Spotify have more tracks?

In terms of the number of tracks, I believe Qobuz is currently around the 24 million mark (and growing all the time of course), vs Spotify around 30 million, also growing every day,  I find the Qobuz offering caters for my musical tastes very well, but there may be some notable absences depending on your taste, to date my only real disappointment is that the entire Led Zeppelin back catalogue is available on Spotify and not on Qobuz, but I think Spotify scored exclusivity on that, so I doubt it can be found anywhere else either, Deezer, Tidal etc.

In terms of native support from Naim, I very much suspect it's case of waiting for things to settle down before investing money and resources into developing a solution.  Lossless streaming is relatively new, quite costly for users, and has a relatively tiny take-up vs Spotify and the other more established lossy services.  The ultimate success of Qobuz and alike is uncertain, indeed Qobuz are still in the process of securing investment needed to even to continue in business, but it all looks hopeful and this time.  For me, Qobuz at £20 per month is easily worth the premium to have such choice and without any compromise in quality.  

Agree with SomgStream, at last count Qobuz 24M, Spotify at 30M. According to Qobuz they have 'all major and independent labels' signed up.

As far as Qobuz subscription I got it slightly wrong.

Qobuz Standard:    £4.99.   320kbps MP3 to PC/Mac  no mobile

Qobuz Premium:    £9.99.   320kbps MP3 to 3 devices including mobile ie PC/Mac, mobile, Sonos etc.

Qobuz Classical:    £14.99. 16/44.1 FLAC to 3 devices . classical titles only

Qobuz Hifi:             £19.99. 16/44.1 FLAC to 3 devices all 24 M titles (except a few only at 320kbps MP3)

I think there are some new subscription options on the way that are available only in France currently.

Also there is a new Qobuz Connect feature launching which bodes well for possible Naim integration - ie similar to how it provides Spotify.

Simon

SongStream, where did you get the info that Qobuz were still looking for investment security. i understand they would have to have folded by now if they hadn't agreed a new investment strategy.

i have no knowledge, but I suspect something may have happened around mid / late November as there was a splurge of marketing and PR activity about growing and enhancing Qobuz.. These things require investment.. There was also possibly a subtle realignment in focussing on the non lossy '24 bit' download business with the subscription services in support.

Simon

Well Simon, I hope you're right, I really do.  I think I would actually cry if it was taken away from me.

Below is a link to the last thing I found on the topic, but no idea as to its credibility; seemed believable at the time.  I check the Qobuz website and search for news on Google now and again, hoping to find an announcement that all is fine, but as yet I've seen nothing to confirm one way or the other.  As you say, there's certainly been plenty of activity in the more recent months, new partnerships, apps, and subscription offers, and they've been recruiting I believe.  

http://www.telecompaper.com/ne...-march-2015--1050821

Thank you Simon, a very informative post.

I have had a Spoitfy account from the very early days. I don't begrudge £10 a month. The whole family use it and I have many "offline" tracks I can enjoy in the car. Also I do love reading the posts in the Music room as to what people listen to and Spotify has enabled me to expand my listening genre, most enjoyable.I did also subscribe to Qobuz for a short while and found for £20 it didn't "float my boat" in the same way. It did not impact me in the same way. I now use Tidal and found that most enjoyable. Thus I am currently paying £30 per month. I will (when the party season closes) go through my Amazon account to see what I have been spending also on a monthly basis. 

Either way way it brings music to the masses, I am still puzzled by Naim & Spotify. I am glad ( even if I could afford it) that I had not brought a Statement with no source first rule in place only to find my options with NDS & Spotify, ouch that has to hurt!!!!

SongStream, Interesting thanks, so if it wasn't to remain independent with its current backers and potential big labels what would it look like? Perhaps there is a stalking horse wanting to buy it and it's customer base.. Interesting wording about remaining independent.

Simon

Simon, I certainly hope they can remain independent, could be quite unfavourable if they were dissolved into something else.  

One thing I like about them, they do not appear to embrace the usual 'it's good enough' attitude, something I see even in other lossless providers.  They go the extra mile to cater for those who really care about music and the finer details of how it's reproduced, and attempt to deliver music in the most pristine condition possible, regardless of the whether accessed by PC, Phone, Sonos or whatever else.  That for me means far more than Spotify's marginally better search functionality, and sets them a notch ahead of Tidal and Deezer for example.

I agree, that is one reason why I think they would be such a good match for Naim. Seem to share some similar values.

Interesting to read as part of future development  plans they [Qobuz] are possibly looking at a partnership with a high quality hifi manufacturing company.

Simon

Indeed, and there is one particular naim, with some French connections, that really springs to mind, isn't there?

Do a search for Qobuz Focal

Qobuz is proud to announce it’s partnership with the prestigious French Hi-Fi manufacturer FOCAL

Fingers crossed! I also see Focal advertising Naim Label 24bit through Qobuz.

G

Now Naim have 'native' Spotify support, I am hoping that Spotify come out with a CD/HD stream. QOBUZ is no where outside a few European countries and Deezer Elite is US only...

What rot!  Apple themselves, so they say, take responsibility themselves for the conditions of workers in developing countries whether they work for Apple or one of it's contractors.  But these - the Apple Rule book - are words only and measly words at that.

To blame Governments in developing countries is, frankly, unbelievable.  But if it keeps you happy then so be it.

Look I realise that many companies take advantage of lower wages in developing countries but what galls me with Apple is that they claim to be ahead of everybody else in the game and that is simply NOT true.  They even use it as part of their marketing strategy.

Good spot about the French linkup guys, I guess you are talking about NAIM (ahem!) loudspeakers!

I have been doing a bit of listening and testing today and have some more observations:

a) The difference in volume between LPs on Spotify.  I was playing the Robert Wyatt track from Soft Machine Third (Moon In June) and then played a bit of Seals and Croft and the volume pinned me back in my seat.  They were so, so, so different.

Is this Spotify or the NAIM implementation?

b) I have a 24bit download from HDT of the Stones "Let It Bleed".  So had a little listen on Spotify and then the download.  The difference was phenomenal but the first initial reaction was how quiet the background was in the 24bit version.  The Spotify had much less bass, the treble was rough and it was really noisy.  It was an interesting, albeit unfair comparison.

But it made me think that Spotify might well take their own versions of albums and may well be using a lot of compression because that is what it sounded like to me.

So Qobuz do a classical version for about £15 \month - interesting.  Looking at the link posted by Songstream we can also see that 24bit is on their radar.

I have a download in 24/192 of French Organ music by Pétur Sakari.  It is just over 70 minutes long and takes up 2.8Gb of disk space.  Now that could be difficult online stream to read.  I have the top BT broadband and get over 4Mb/s on downloads - reported by IE.  A quick calc shows that should be OK but if anyone is still using an acoustic coupler????   Or has a dodgy ISP then it could be an issue, although I suspect 24/96 would be the max we would see for a long time.

Bill,

So why even bother buying  a iPad !!

To drive my NAIM but if I had waited a while I could have bought an Android tablet from someone who probably treats their workforce as bad as Apple.  But who doesn't keep preaching us on how good they are in the developing world.

As I said in my last post on this subject, which you obviously ignored, it is this holier-than-everyone attitude Apple take that really hacks me off.

That is all I am saying!