Spotify

Posted by: Big Bill on 29 December 2014

I have just signed up to this 3 months for 99p gig that Spotify are currently offering, so a few of my thoughts are here.  Lets see if they change during the 90 days.

 

a)  NAIM should write a little missive on how Spotify is integrated into their kit.  I also have a Western Dig. Live TV Hub, which has an app for Spotify, you don't run on an iPad or similar and it is very easy to drive.

I also found that when I kicked off some "Tonto's Expading Headband" it came out of my iPad - not my UnitiLite.  Now Apple can make whatever claims they like about the speakers but they sound rubbish.  A bit like their promises to the workers in the 3rd World who make their products.

OK I did find how to feed it into my NAIM, but as a Spotify virgin this was by no means obvious.

ps NAIM if you have written something and I missed it then I apologise.

 

b) Sound quality.  From my experience with iRadio I believe that mp3 needs to be at 320k and that is what you get from Spotify once you sign up.  But I have to say that after extended listening then 320k is beginning to cause me concerns, I am just not convinced it is good enough!  I should add that this is without playing any classical through it and I expect that will make matters worse.

 

I would appreciate your comments.

Posted on: 30 December 2014 by Gale 501
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Gale 501:

Bill,

So why even bother buying  a iPad !!

 

To drive my NAIM but if I had waited a while I could have bought an Android tablet from someone who probably treats their workforce as bad as Apple.  But who doesn't keep preaching us on how good they are in the developing world.

 

As I said in my last post on this subject, which you obviously ignored, it is this holier-than-everyone attitude Apple take that really hacks me off.

 

That is all I am saying! 

Are you sure your not american?

Because thats what you are always saying.

If you read more on here you might end up Dangerous  

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by FangfossFlyer
Originally Posted by Wat:

Just concentrate on making a great DAC with automatic room correction and speaker optimisation. 

Guess what I am tempted to say????... Exaktly!

 

 

Richard

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Well you can drop the room and speaker optimisation,  but agree on a great DAC.

 

However I think supporting non proprietry public network streaming services is vital. What is the difference between this and radio.. Not a lot. Develop a platform and API that can work with the services, then voila.

 

However heading down a limited proprietary/closed route, which it appears may have happened with Spotfify, is not the future IMO, as I suspect it will be too labour intensive to keep up.

 

Naim is a hifi company. network streaming services  is part of that space now and they have invested a lot in the ND products, but they would be ill advised IMO to  stop at the current foundation level of home streaming and web radio of previous years unless they wish to undermine what they have already achieved.

 

If Naim did not want to do streaming they wouldn't have launched the NDX several years ago, and arguably the Muso.

 

Simon

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by SongStream

A friend of mine has a pair of B&O Beolab 5 speakers, and they do this incredible thing where they analyse your listening room with ultra sonics, and then configure themselves to sound absolutely awful.  Loud though, very loud.  

 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Camlan
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Well you can drop the room and speaker optimisation,  but agree on a great DAC.

 

However I think supporting non proprietry public network streaming services is vital. What is the difference between this and radio.. Not a lot. Develop a platform and API that can work with the services, then voila.

 

However heading down a limited proprietary/closed route, which it appears may have happened with Spotfify, is not the future IMO, as I suspect it will be too labour intensive to keep up.

 

Naim is a hifi company. network streaming services  is part of that space now and they have invested a lot in the ND products, but they would be ill advised IMO to  stop at the current foundation level of home streaming and web radio of previous years unless they wish to undermine what they have already achieved.

 

If Naim did not want to do streaming they wouldn't have launched the NDX several years ago, and arguably the Muso.

 

Simon

This +1

 

Having invested substantial sums in an NDS and Unitiserve to replace my CDS3 and thus bought into the Naim streaming solution, I will be very disappointed to say the least if the best we are going to get as a network steaming service is glorified MP3. That may be fine for the Muso but for the NDS and NDX it isn't, not when there is considerably better available.

 

Moreover, I strongly believe that, accepting  commercial constraints, Naim should give some guidance on their intentions going forward. If I was one of the Forum members who had invested in Sonos only for Naim to announce Qobuz or Tidal integration in the near future I would not be best pleased. in my view, loyal  customers need some guidance on this.

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by SongStream
Originally Posted by Wat:

But a Skottish company does it right even if B&O surprisingly don't - I'm sure Naim would succeed as they have done for Bentley. 

To be fair, they sound awful with or without the room correction.  However, this type of correction is not something I buy into, for the same reason I would not allow tone controls in the signal path.

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Camlan

Wat

 

I understand where you are coming from but the Skottish company you mention have managed it. Moreover I don' t want a Mac Mini. Apple have had enough of my money!

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by DrPo
Originally Posted by timster:

Now Naim have 'native' Spotify support, I am hoping that Spotify come out with a CD/HD stream. QOBUZ is no where outside a few European countries and Deezer Elite is US only...

 

 

I came by the following Dec 17 Post in audiostream:

 

In an interview with Billboard, Spotify CEO Daniel Ek talks about the possibility of adding a higher tiered lossless service to Spotify:

Just like we’ve had deluxe edition of albums, everyone is thinking about how does that look like in a future world? Lossless music -- is that a higher priced tier? Is that something that comes with deluxe editions? How should we package subscriptions to consumers? That’s a very big topic right now on the label side. The kind of debates that I’ve wanted to have for many, many years with the music industry, we’re finally seeing it happening. The industry is realizing, “Hey, we need to embrace streaming, and we need to do it fast.”

obviously they are thinking about it...

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by Wat:

But a Skottish company does it right even if B&O surprisingly don't - I'm sure Naim would succeed as they have done for Bentley. 

Indeed, Linn have an interesting product here, but I was implying drop it as more a case of immediate priorities, I think a current generation DAC/DSP and Public Network Streaming is where I would go.. and if I am honest I would put the emphasis on the latter now... Unless the current ND product architectures have led Naim into a dead end.. In which case there may be a portfolio development issue... But I doubt this is the case, and the launch of the Muso gives me some hope here.

 

To the point Wat made. I have been using public network streaming for years and years.. Using my computer in a parallel world to my Naim audio .. This area has matured now to the point where I want to use it with my Naim audio equipment,  and  not having to rely on a computer or phone any more.

 

The early niche days in this space I am afraid have long since gone, although they have been fun and clearly there is innovation ongoing at the edge. But this has becoming mainstream now and has the eye of big business , why should those who love quality audio and quality audio equipment who are NOT engineers or geeks/techie-muso enthusiasts  be left behind/excluded?

 

Simon

 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Wat:
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Wat:

t!  I just mentioned their dreadful record in the Third World where they time after time break their own 'Apple Promises'.

 

Apple does subcontract work to the third world (is PRC third world?) and sets conditions that if observed protect the workers. Unfortunately, some Governments do not enforce employee's rights. Apple could, of course, remove its support for those workers, but do really think life would better for those people if Apple did this. if we boycott products manufactured in the third world then the opportunity to improve conditions for those workers may be lost forever.  

What rot!  Apple themselves, so they say, take responsibility themselves for the conditions of workers in developing countries whether they work for Apple or one of it's contractors.  But these - the Apple Rule book - are words only and measly words at that.

 

To blame Governments in developing countries is, frankly, unbelievable.  But if it keeps you happy then so be it.

 

Look I realise that many companies take advantage of lower wages in developing countries but what galls me with Apple is that they claim to be ahead of everybody else in the game and that is simply NOT true.  They even use it as part of their marketing strategy.

Dear Big Bill and others interested 

 

Please click HERE for Apple's Supplier Responsibility Statement 

 

I don't regard it as just marketing, but a genuine attempt to improve conditions for the workforce. It is far from 100% successful and I agree more should be done, but do you have positive suggestions how one might achieve this. Like it or not you are reliant on the governing bodies. 

 

I think we all wish the world was a better place. 

 

And we both like Robert Wyatt so I'm not a totally lost case. 

 

If you had a Mac Mini then you could enjoy Spotify, Deezer, Tidal and so many more. It would relieve  pressure on Naim to put even more services on its streamers. I think it unrealistic to expect Naim to keep pace with Apple or even Sonos. Naim needs to bring out a SuperDAC to compete with Antelope and the designs of Andreas Koch and Ed Meitner.

 

I would still buy another UK made Naim one-box DAC if it had Quad DSD support and outperformed Hugo. 

 

Happy New Year, Wat 

I am sort Wat but they have been saying this for years and do nothing about it.  Please tell me what has changed.

 

You are wrong it is marketing nice and simple.  I have heard the nice Californian accents saying all this stuff before and they say it to sell more kit.  Pure and Simple.

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by SongStream:

A friend of mine has a pair of B&O Beolab 5 speakers, and they do this incredible thing where they analyse your listening room with ultra sonics, and then configure themselves to sound absolutely awful.  Loud though, very loud. 

A mate of mine has a B+O active system, could be getting on for 20 years old now and cost a bomb when new.  It's all B+O CD, pre-amp through to active speakers and it sounds awful, truly awful.  It sounds as a dull as an Andre Rieux album, it has absolutely no sparkle and make everything sound the same.  Bit embarrassing when you are asked for your opinion on it.

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Big Bill

AllenB I am so with you on this man.  I have been listening for a while now to Spotify and have been reporting my feelings.  Further listening hasn't helped very much:

 

a) Impossible to play loud through my main system, but sounds OK on my PC through some quite nice Creative speakers,

b) I think and this is only my opinion that 320k iRadio often sounds better than Spotify - both through my UnitiLite, and

c) Finally and I am not sure I agree with myself here, it sounds better coming through my WD box going out to my UnitiLite on pass-through HDMI BUT through my Sony TV.  I can't believe this to be true and will do some more testing.  But proper testing is difficult, usually my long-suffering missus is stood in the kitchen with ma iPad and randomly selecting stuff.  But can't do the same thing here.

btw the WD interface is sooooo much easier to use then the messy Spotify interface.

 

The only plus-point is that it makes my main system sound brilliant when I switch back to upnp with 16 & 24 bit FLACs.

 

Come on NAIM get Qobuz on NAIM streaming devices, I am quite willing to shell out £20 per month for that service.

 

ps Received the new mastering of Terry Riley's great, great, great album "A Rainbow in Curved Air" - it is such an improvement of the one it replaces.  Well done Cherry Red!

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Wat:

The only plus-point is that it makes my main system sound brilliant when I switch back to upnp with 16 & 24 bit FLACs.

 

So you do like FLAC .... I must have misinterpreted your post on another thread. 

 

Agree about the Terry Riley album. 

Have you heard the new mastering of this great album?  Side 2 got me into a trance.

 

Wat I know you and I disagree with each other regards Apple, but after watching the Panorama report just before Christmas and then looking at the smiling faces and that promises on the link you provided just made me so angry.  Not with you though mate!

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Solid Air

Well, I took the plunge and upgraded to a NAC-N 172XS.  Ex-dem at a good price, and I have to say it's an improvement on the excellent Unitiqute. It's just clearer and more transparent. Very happy. Currently listening to the Sun Kil Moon album, and it sounds fantastic.

 

I guess some time I'll change the NAP100 too, but that's for another day. 

 

Anyway, I also did the software upgrade (again) and am now using Spotify. For me, it's a nice way to try out new music or play odd things I don't want to own, but no more. However, for the rest of the family it's a revelation, and they love it - it's been on all day! So overall, it's a big plus having Spotify, but for me personally, lossless would be the transformation.

 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Solid Air, good for you. I recently heard NAC-N 172XS playing to a NAP300 and a pair of Titans and it sounded impressive. Enjoy it.. and when lossless arrives you will be well set to enjoy that as well 

Happy New Year.

Simon

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Solid Air

Thank you, Simon, and a very happy new year to you too. I always find your posts hugely informative and educational, and the height of considered thought on the inner workings of hifi. Thank you! (I hope I haven't embarrassed you, but then I imagine you to be a severe-looking bald fellow with large eyebrows moved only by Supermarionation!) 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by Solid Air:

Thank you, Simon, and a very happy new year to you too. I always find your posts hugely informative and educational, and the height of considered thought on the inner workings of hifi. Thank you! (I hope I haven't embarrassed you, but then I imagine you to be a severe-looking bald fellow with large eyebrows moved only by Supermarionation!) 

Large eyebrows, but a full head of hair 

Bit of a poorly boy tonight so cried out of celebrations .. 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Goon525

Well in the spirit of Happy New Year, I'd like to add my own thanks to Simon for the quality and quantity of his contributions here - and wish him a speedy recovery.

Paul

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Paul, HNY to you and yours...

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Bart
Originally Posted by Camlan:
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Well you can drop the room and speaker optimisation,  but agree on a great DAC.

 

However I think supporting non proprietry public network streaming services is vital. What is the difference between this and radio.. Not a lot. Develop a platform and API that can work with the services, then voila.

 

However heading down a limited proprietary/closed route, which it appears may have happened with Spotfify, is not the future IMO, as I suspect it will be too labour intensive to keep up.

 

Naim is a hifi company. network streaming services  is part of that space now and they have invested a lot in the ND products, but they would be ill advised IMO to  stop at the current foundation level of home streaming and web radio of previous years unless they wish to undermine what they have already achieved.

 

If Naim did not want to do streaming they wouldn't have launched the NDX several years ago, and arguably the Muso.

 

Simon

This +1

 

Having invested substantial sums in an NDS and Unitiserve to replace my CDS3 and thus bought into the Naim streaming solution, I will be very disappointed to say the least if the best we are going to get as a network steaming service is glorified MP3. That may be fine for the Muso but for the NDS and NDX it isn't, not when there is considerably better available.

 

Moreover, I strongly believe that, accepting  commercial constraints, Naim should give some guidance on their intentions going forward. If I was one of the Forum members who had invested in Sonos only for Naim to announce Qobuz or Tidal integration in the near future I would not be best pleased. in my view, loyal  customers need some guidance on this.

A Sonos Connect is $345.00  A year of Spotify Premium is $120.00  I'd hardly call Sonos an "investment," but I get your point. 

 

On the other hand, the pace at which music streaming and related technologies and offerings advance often outpaces the hardware.  Look at set-top (TV) boxes.  You can get a Fire TV Stick for $40.00  For non-audio/video philes, this business resembles the razor and blade or printer and ink model; subsidize the hardware heavily and derive income from monthly services, individual movie rentals, etc. etc.

 

I, for one, am not troubled by lack of support for this or that today's favorite flavor of streaming service.  I own expensive Naim hi fi equipment because it sounds fantastic; if I need to buy a separate dongle so I can listen to some lossy streamed source, so be it.  When the online streaming business sorts itself out, and the last player(s) are standing (likely Apple, Google and/or Amazon), I'll deal with it then.  If Qobuz or Tidal or Spotify or whomever actually solve the equation, Apple or Google or Amazon will buy them; I'll bet my Motorola am radio on that.

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by PG
Welcome to the exclusive NAC-N 172XS club, often overlooked by many and a keeper for me. I use it with a NAP200 and Spendor A5s and love how it all sounds. Enjoy. Originally Posted by Solid Air:

Well, I took the plunge and upgraded to a NAC-N 172XS.  Ex-dem at a good price, and I have to say it's an improvement on the excellent Unitiqute. It's just clearer and more transparent. Very happy. Currently listening to the Sun Kil Moon album, and it sounds fantastic.

 

I guess some time I'll change the NAP100 too, but that's for another day. 

 

Anyway, I also did the software upgrade (again) and am now using Spotify. For me, it's a nice way to try out new music or play odd things I don't want to own, but no more. However, for the rest of the family it's a revelation, and they love it - it's been on all day! So overall, it's a big plus having Spotify, but for me personally, lossless would be the transformation.

 

 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by tonym
Originally Posted by Wat:

Just concentrate on making a great DAC with automatic room correction and speaker optimisation. Naim cannot hope to keep up with the here today, gone tomorrow streaming services ... 

 

To me, Naim = great electronics with super build quality and service

 

I just don't think of them as a software house ... I suspect I'm not alone

Very good Mr Wat, I agree completely.

 

There seems to be a resistance to room correction software; since having a forum friend set up Amarra with iRC software on board in my home system I've become a great fan, and now I really can't do without it, even though beforehand I was extremely sceptical and regarded my room as being very benign accoustically.

 

It would be really super if Naim could incorporate such cutting-edge technology into a nice convenient package along with a super DAC, but alas I get the feeling they're on a somewhat different course.

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by SongStream
Originally Posted by tonym:
Originally Posted by Wat:

Just concentrate on making a great DAC with automatic room correction and speaker optimisation. Naim cannot hope to keep up with the here today, gone tomorrow streaming services ... 

 

To me, Naim = great electronics with super build quality and service

 

I just don't think of them as a software house ... I suspect I'm not alone

Very good Mr Wat, I agree completely.

 

There seems to be a resistance to room correction software; since having a forum friend set up Amarra with iRC software on board in my home system I've become a great fan, and now I really can't do without it, even though beforehand I was extremely sceptical and regarded my room as being very benign accoustically.

 

It would be really super if Naim could incorporate such cutting-edge technology into a nice convenient package along with a super DAC, but alas I get the feeling they're on a somewhat different course.

I really am surprised by the whole room correction thing being embraced by seemingly hardened audiophiles.  That's not to knock it, but I would certainly be in the sceptical camp at this point, though pretty ignorant as to what it actually does.  Anyone care to enlighten me on how it works in this context?

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Bart

Well I took advantage of the $0.99/month 3-month trial for Spotify Premium.  Streaming me some Grateful Dead to the Qute (selected highest quality).  It sounds OK, but certainly not as good as the same track from my server.  But now I can talk about it from actual experience

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Hook
Originally Posted by Bart:

Well I took advantage of the $0.99/month 3-month trial for Spotify Premium.  Streaming me some Grateful Dead to the Qute (selected highest quality).  It sounds OK, but certainly not as good as the same track from my server.  But now I can talk about it from actual experience

 

Hi Bart -

 

Between Deezer and Music Vault, there's a ton of Dead to be explored! Deezer sounds great, and while the quality of Music Vault concert videos varies, it sure is a lot of fun. Brings back great memories!

 

Happy New Year to you and yours, and best wishes for 2015 to all my forum friends!

 

Hook