Tidal - First Impressions

Posted by: MartinCA on 31 December 2014

I'm really impressed!   The app/web-site is well designed, it has a big selection of music, and, crucially it streams lossless music.  I love the recommended playlists.

 

OK - the selection of music is not complete and there are some features missing - but given that this is a newly launched service, I am much more impressed by the quality than worried by any omissions, which I hope time will cure.

 

If have tried the following:

 

1. Streaming from Tidal PC app to Arcam rPac in my study system - excellent results.  Before now I have spent hundreds of hours fiddling with 40,000 mostly MP3 tracks managed by Media Monkey, trying to get the right art and tags.  Tidal almost totally replaces that.  Now I may get a Naim DAC V1 to replace the rPac.

 

2. Streaming from the Tidal website via Chrome/Airfoil/Airport express to the main system's Naim DAC.  Got this to work fairly easily.  But the Airport Express has always been the least impressive source for the DAC.  And Airfoil - well, anything that has a graphic equaliser that I can't turn off is bad news for SQ.  All the same the nDAC SQ is still very good.

 

3. Streaming from the iPad Tidal App via Airplay to the AV Amp, and to the nDAC via the Airport Express.  As above - got it to work easily and SQ is good (though not as good as it can get).  I get occasional drop-outs (possibly due to bandwidth contention with my son watching you-tube on the same WAN).

 

4. Streaming from the iPad Tidal App direct to the nDAC via USB cable.  SQ Better than 2 and 3 above  (though not as good as it can get)..

 

So - all in all, for me this is a huge step forward in terms of being able to play CD quality music wherever I want to.

 

But it is not the end of the journey.  I still need something that provides a Naim quality bridge to the DAC from a variety of bit stream sources (something that doesn't have a superfluous top end DAC or Ripping Device included to double the price),  and which can accept bit streams pushed at it from sources like Tidal.   Sadly, that's the same need I had from the day I first got the nDAC. 

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Hook

Hi Martin -

 

Sonos Connect works very well for Tidal. The only thing Connect is missing is support for high resolution files (greater than 16/44.1). If that's important to you, consider a Bluesound Node. Your nDAC will do a great job of removing S/PDIF-related jitter, so connecting via Toslink also works very well.

 

If you use the search engine, you will find there have been quite a few posts on this topic over the last week or two.  Good luck!

 

Hook

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by GraemeH

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...39#45070658971054939

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by MartinCA
Thanks Hook, Graeme
 
Graeme, I had searched on 'Tidal' but missed the thread you have linked - that's very helpful and relevant.
Hook - thanks - I'd looked at Sonos in the past, but they didn't quite do what I wanted.  Either I didn't understand the write-ups or the functionality has developed, because the thread above also gives working solutions for how to set it up.
 
I'm still a bit wary - the SQ where the nDac is fed from the AE is not as good as from the UnitiServe despite the re-clocking capabilities.    So is the Sonos a step up from an AE in terms of SQ?  I suppose at least it can remove the Airfoil and its Equalisation from the scene.
 
I do love the Tidal streaming service though.  I am sure it will be the same for Quboz subscribers - it opens up whole new realms of enjoying music.
Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Martin, glad you appear to be enjoying Tidal lossless like I am enjoying the  Qobuz lossless service. It really is a game changer isn't it. 

I am really glad at LONG last lossless streaming is coming mainstream - it's been a long long wait.

 

PS Try the Sonos as a front end as Hook suggests... It works well with a great GUI ... Very acessable and easy to use. however  be aware the Sonos is made for a price for the mass market, and it's digital signal is not the best. As Hook says the NDAC should do a good job at cleaning it up.. But keep optical. You may find that a reclcoker or an after market Sono mod or a Naim ND players improve things in the longer run in conjunction with the NDAC.

 

Simon

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by mutterback

Let's hope Naim streamers integrate Tidal quickly, using the direct stream as they seem to have implemented with Spotify. Right now, I'm using is over airplay - directly to a muso and indirectly via airport express > NDAC on my main system. Hopefully they set up their code in all that time they took to do spotifty so that its easy to add other networks.

 

About to run a comparison on the Muso (new!) of direct spotify integration vs tidal via airplay. Oh what fun it is to play....

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi, I have used the Qobuz stream via the Airplay method as well as Qobuz via the direct stream via the Sonos. To my ears the latter is a significant improvement when streaming FLACs. I never really understood why other than i,assumed perhaps the AirPlay transmission/device (Airport Express/AppleTC) was manipulating the audio some how. Both AirPort Express and Sonos are renown for poor jitter, so it can't be specific to that.

Simon

 

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by glevethan

I really would love for Naim to comment on a roadmap for Muso.  I have been using Tidal since its debut in the States and am COMPLETELY enamoured with it.  What can be better than non compressed full resolution files?  Obviously Linn felt the same as they were quick to integrate it for my Klimax DS.  They stated that lossless streaming fit well with their view of quality of sound and welcomed it as an addition to the DS line of products.

 

I believe that Naim is also after the best possible sound - be it from their separates as well as from new products such as MUSO.  I also think they will agree that lossless streaming from Tidal (or Qobuz or whomever) is unequivocally better than Spotify's 320 MP3 streams.  As such I would "hope" they would be working on incorporating ANY service which provides better than Spotify's 320mp3 stream.

 

My MUSO (which is wonderful!) was purchased from the Apple Store and can be returned through mid January.  A road map would be nice so as to know where Naim is heading and what is on their minds.  As a loyal customer I would hope they do not sway from their desire of providing the ultimate listening quality even from "consumer" products such as MUSO.  Spotify does not provide ultimate quality at this moment in time when compared to the other streaming alternatives currently on the market.

Posted on: 31 December 2014 by MartinCA

 

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Martin, glad you appear to be enjoying Tidal lossless like I am enjoying the  Qobuz lossless service. It really is a game changer isn't it. 

 

Simon, I couldn't agree more! 

 

Some years ago we exchanged posts about how it was that different sources sound different with the  nDAC with its' buffering, even over optical connections.  I never really understood why it is the case but it certainly is - there's no getting away from the fact that the better the transport the better the sound.

 

But I probably will try a Sonos unless Naim surprise us with a fast move to support Qobuz or Tidal.

Posted on: 25 January 2015 by MartinCA

Hook - thanks for the Sonos pointer - I have now got myself an ex-demo Sonos Connect.  Tidal has been implemented within Sonos, but is still in beta test.  I have had no problems using it, and very easy to set up.  The Sonos brings together most of my digital music sources painlessly.  The question is – how good is the SQ.

 

To find out, I tried out the following options as routes into my NDAC/XPS:

 

1.  Tidal/Sonos vs.  Tidal/Airfoil/Airport Express

I should say I was wrong in my OP because you can turn off the equaliser in Airfoil, and that improves the SQ.   But still, the Sonos option sounded better to me.  Not night and day, but if you toggle backward and forward more detail comes through the Sonos.  The Air route sounds relatively muffled (still good, though).

 

2. Tidal/Sonos  vs  Unitiserve

I did this as a reference.  Of course the Unitiserve can’t stream Tidal so I was playing a ripped album and comparing it to the same album streaming from Tidal via Sonos.  Fairly easy decision that the Unitiserve sounds better.  Sounds fresher.  More detail again and clearer bass.

 

3.  iTunes (playing rips from the Unitserve)/AE vs Tidal/AF/AE

There was not much to choose between these with my hearing.  iTunes/AE was probably better than Tidal/AF/AE (but not as good as Tidal/Sonos).  But difficult to decide, so I didn't think the difference, it was there, was worth worrying about. 

No great surprise in this really.  All options sound better than compressed music, and I would say their SQ is in the following order.

  1. Unitiserve playing its own rips
  2. Sonos playing Tidal
  3. Anything through the Airport

In fact, the results are probably be influenced by the interconnect cable.  The Unitserve has a Naim DC1 BNC (£285); the Sonos, a Chord prodac vee3 Coax (£85); and the AE has a medium quality toslink (£50).    All other connections were Cat6 cables connected to gigabit switches. 

 

 All option sound better than compressed music.

 

Tidal is still a wonderful new thing for me – good playlists make it worthwhile trying to connect the service to the nDAC and to get the best out of them.

Posted on: 25 January 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Martin, interesting, I prefer the Toslink between Sonos and the NDX to the coax. Whether  it's because of the lack of the Sonos galvanic isolation or increased electrical noise from the Sonos circuitry, I don't know, but the fibre connection is not really impacted by these things.

Yes in the limit I still give to the nod to locally streamed content, but there is not a huge amount in it...

 

Can't wait until Naim directly implement, and then it will be equivalent to selecting an alternate media server... And then the SQ differences should be very sublte, just like they are between different local UPNP media servers running on different NAS's or standalone now on your home LAN.

 

Simon

Posted on: 25 January 2015 by MartinCA
I think I'll get a decent toslink cable and try that - quite apart from the Sonos, it might improve the AE, though I suspect that is a relatively lost cause.
 
I did ask Naim support about their plans for Tidal.  I got a polite non-answer, which is perhaps not surprising but is awfully frustrating.  Still = give it a few more years and we'll properly be in the new world of high quality music on demand.
 
I can't hear the subtle difference between music on different UPNP servers yet - whether that is my hearing or the need for more quality in my preamp I am not sure.  Either way, if you are right it will be good enough for me!
 
 
Posted on: 25 January 2015 by glevethan

General comment on Tidal direct streaming (and not on lack of Naim implementation).

 

I recently had a forum member (and long time Naim user) over to the house (we frequently get together to listen to the systems) and asked him to listen to the same track "ripped two different ways".  In reality he was actually listening to a FLAC rip vs. a TIDAL stream pulled directly by my KDS/1 (552/500). 

His comment - there was an ever so slight bit of difference in presentation and he did not know which "rip" he preferred as both were equally great. 

 

He was absolutely flabbergasted when I told him one was a TIDAL stream. 

 

The future is already here. 

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by Chris G

Does anyone know if Tidal supports gapless playback?  Some classical works have movements which run into each other without a gap - eg the third and fourth movements of Sibelius 2nd symphony.  I couldn't find an answer on Tidal's website.

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by Aleg
Originally Posted by Chris G:

Does anyone know if Tidal supports gapless playback?  Some classical works have movements which run into each other without a gap - eg the third and fourth movements of Sibelius 2nd symphony.  I couldn't find an answer on Tidal's website.

All reviews and comments I have seen state "no gapless playback".

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by MartinCA

No gapless playback that I have found - I get gaps between tracks which occasionally detracts from the moment.  The excitement of being able to stream CD music of my choice has so far tipped the scales away from that being an issue for me, coupled with the optimistic belief that they'll fix that before too long.  Whether I will feel the same way in five years time when they haven't done so is another matter.

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by Goon525

It was the lack of gapless playback, plus the lack of access to CD booklets, that led to me giving up Tidal and sticking with Qobuz. I have had a reply from Tidal saying that they're working on gapless, but no idea of timescale. Gapless is pretty much essential if you listen to classical.

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by George J

More than pretty much essential!

 

Gapless replay is a starting point.

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I agree gapless essential and not just for classical.. I wonder why Tidal are struggling here ?

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by Chris G

Thanks everyone, I won't be trying it until gapless is available. As everyone says, it's essential for classical listening.  Another case of classical being low priority.  I suppose it's a "numbers thing".

Posted on: 26 January 2015 by MikeT.
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

I agree gapless essential and not just for classical.. I wonder why Tidal are struggling here ?

I notice that even on some CD's gaps are not uncommon, particularly on live albums.  That is not keeping me from giving Tidal a try.  At the moment, Tidal is streaming from the internal DAC on  SONOS Connect through unbalanced output.  Some good, some not so good. 

I have a new DAC on the way and will reserve judgment on overall SQ until it arrives and I have a few hours listening under my belt.  I will be running SPDIF Coax out from the Connect.  The maximum resolution will still be no more than Redbook standard.