Naim Lossless Streaming Roadmap Campaign
Posted by: GraemeH on 31 December 2014
OK, we're loyal. We have been with you a long time Naim.
Lot's of separate threads are now asking for clarity regarding the way forward for Naim and lossless streaming.
Please give us an indication of your future intentions so that we can make informed decisions about where to spend our hard earned income.
Thanks,
Graeme
It is certainly changing, I remember trips to London to specialists Heavy Metal record store Shades in Soho to meet bands, buy albums (like early Metallica in 1983/4) get tickets to secret gigs etc.
Still, we are in the world of multiple access points to media and consolidation of that media into one accessible point, look at Apps being developed they are mostly information consolidation apps (compare the whatever you choose .com)
Enhanced streaming, videos tagged to music, HD streaming with moving image album notes, links to other media.
Record labels do not seem to sell anything, all 24bit media appears to come from HD Tracks etc I can't find any HD downloads for Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam on their label sites or band sites. A few do most don't appear to, yet.
Once material is released purely for the streaming market and not for the ownership market that content will then contain more, and perhaps labels will stream their own artists material offering even more access to their talent that the likes of Qobuz couldn't do.
The Apple/U2 streaming service will probably be that shift when it comes this year or next.
Once material is released purely for the streaming market and not for the ownership market that content will then contain more, and perhaps labels will stream their own artists material offering even more access to their talent that the likes of Qobuz couldn't do.
The Apple/U2 streaming service will probably be that shift when it comes this year or next.
And hopefully the less reliance on labels to filter the media.. What I am encouraged by is the continuing growth of self publish streaming services such as SoundCloud. Yes these are not new, but I suspect many on this forum never listened to or even knew these types of services existed because for many years they could only be really accessed with a computer. I think streaming is a good thing in mainstream hifi equipment as it should make these services more accessible to many more people thereby giving even greater accesability to different types of music should we want... and of course it allow artists to promote themselves.
Simon
I use Bandcamp and SoundCloud on a regular basis, more-so than Spotify, to search out music for let's say off mainstream artists.
+1 Bandcamp here also, Slowly Rolling Camera a recommend for a listen. FLAC downloads are also 24bit in some cases.
This is interesting. You pay a monthly sub for streaming and also get to download everything you listen to, some in 24bit? This is more like it.
To a certain extent, there are still first world / third world extremes to navigate here, I have just returned from holiday in The Gambia, and streaming is a virtual impossibility, wi-fi is flaky as hell anywhere you go. My downloads to my i-devices were my saviour.
I'm 99% sure that Sky is a non-entity in the US. Even those of us in privileged first-world economies there is a significantly fractured market for this 'stuff.' Allen I agree 1000% with your sentiment that we want our hardware to support "the future." Just what the future will be is, to me, SO fuzzy that I cannot get nearly as worked up about it as others here in January 2015.
I get what I believe to be your 'central tenet' in this thread. Some hardware platforms and providers seem to be able to integrate the latest flavors of streaming quite easily. Your wish is that Naim were among them and that your NDS was on that list of hardware. I fall into the camp of being "not so worried about it" for two main reasons: (1) streaming service is not significant to me at this time (subject to change of course), and (2) because of (1) I am willing to see how things sort out. After things sort out, I may well want to be a streaming service customer, in which case of course my preferred hardware better support it. In the meantime, my hi fi sounds superb; my NDS sounds fantastic. Cheers!
This is interesting. You pay a monthly sub for streaming and also get to download everything you listen to, some in 24bit? This is more like it.
Harry to me those are two legs of the stool. The third leg is whether services will provide access to exactly what I want. When I look at my purchases over the past 12 months, more than 50% have been really great remasters of 70's classic rock in hi res format. Specifically, Led Zep remasters, The Who remasters, Crime of the Century, etc., all in 24-192 format. I really believe that such let me hear the most from my hi fi. I want access to THAT stuff . . . I don't want just ANY mastering of Who's Next, I want the one(s) I want.
Of course by mentioning all of this 70's stuff I am clearly pinning the "dinosaur" label on my shirt. (But I have bought a fair bit of new music too. . . some from artists who made it big in the '70's!)
Hook, I have been experimenting a bit with the Sonos/NDX connection. I rummaged through a bag of hifi odds and sods I have and found a combined TOSLINK to Coax converter and reclocker. Its circa 1997.
I got curious so I put it in between the Sonos and the NDX/Hugo. Initially the resultant sound had a dull overall sound with a prominent very high end, but over a hour the resultant sound transformed.. The treble became natural and naturally integrated and the bass became beefier, more solid and better defined, and additionally the mids in the audio became more textured and nuanced. The result was more enjoyable and closer to the native UPnP sound than using the direct TOSLINK Sonnos connection into the NDX. I assume the clock in the reclocker device was stabilising over this initial warm up time, as I probably had powered it for over 10 years.
But what this has shown me is that the ND players even in reclocker/digital source switch mode still appear to benefit from a low jitter source... and potentially perhaps what I can expect when Naim do support Qobuz and other lossless services directly.
Simon
Makes sense Simon. Ever since the nDAC days, and despite the buffering/reclocking, we have heard differences between digital sources.
Just as a level set, my understanding is that for wired connections, BNC offers some advantages over RCA, but both connections introduce the possibility of electrical interference accompanying the signal. Toslink defeats that possibility, but with much higher jitter levels, it causes Naim's reclocking logic to work much harder (also potentially creating some noise).
Sounds from your experiment that there is room for improvement over a simple Toslink connection, but unfortunately for me, I don't have a S/PDIF reclocker tucked away somewhere! :-)
Have looked at Sonos mods, and at the reclockers available from Empirical Audio and Wyred 4 Sound. Both offer Toslink input and BNC output along with femto-grade clocks. Thing is, I hesitate to spend much more on what I was hoping would be just an interim solution. There are any number of cheap Toslink-to-BNC converters out there, but none offer reclocking, so I am assuming they will do nothing to improve on the Toslink signal. I do still like the idea of Toslink output from the Sonos Connect, as I have its wall wart on a separate electrical circuit from my Naim gear.
If I were to pull the trigger, I think it would be for the W4S Remedy. It's a bit less expensive at $399, and I suppose it could accompany the Sonos on redeployment Later. Only problem is that I've become quite a miser here in my late 50's! Still, my eye keeps returning to the Amazon "Buy with 1-click" button...
Thanks for taking the time to try this out. Over the years, I've learned to trust what you hear.
ATB.
Hook
To a certain extent, there are still first world / third world extremes to navigate here, I have just returned from holiday in The Gambia, and streaming is a virtual impossibility, wi-fi is flaky as hell anywhere you go. My downloads to my i-devices were my saviour.
Welcome back Allen, and what an interesting choice for a holiday! Smallest country in mainland Africa, surrounded by Senegal. Other than a stopover once in Dakar, have not spent any time in West Africa. Did you have a good time?
Oh my, just read that there was a failed coup attempt there yesterday! Nothing to do with your, er, holiday I presume? :-)
ATB.
Hook
That's also where a big part of my expenditure on music has gone in 2014. It won't last but it was a good year for Prog/70s Rock and most of it sounds good - always a bonus! Last week, on the recommendation of my dealer I bought the 24bit version of Electric Warrior from Qobuz. It never occurred to me because how on earth could something from this era be enhanced by putting it in a 24bit wrapper? An A-B in the shop was conclusive. Helen's the expert here and she was convinced in seconds. And she's right.
Dinosaur or not, you're never too old....
(if your ears still work)
Apple and Amazon will become big players in this area and will do it well and their own way.
Amazon's reach is quite small. They only operate in 14 countries, with even fewer offering streaming music and movies. If you scratch the surface, outside of the US, UK and little bit in Germany, most countries get quite a limited experience. If it wants to play with the big boys it will need to be more aggressive.
What make/name is your Toslink cable?
Wireworld Supernova 6 (1M).
Thanks Hook, but that is too expensive for me. My budget is around £50...
Amazon are big in most countries in which they operate, making most $$ from US, UK and Germany I believe. I think they could be a global force eventually.
Currently, Spotify is clearly the leader (I don't include Pandora), but Apple Beats (which they'll rename as an iTunes brand and launch fully early this year by all accounts), and Google with the Youtube Music Key, both offer strong brands, global reach, strong partnerships and obvious routes to market. Unfortunately, they are likely also to offer lossy content for the foreseeable, because their market strength is in mobile. That means Spotify won't be too worried about Tidal, Qobuz, etc for quite a while, it's Apple and Google they'll be concerned with - for those companies it's a land grab right now.
Spotify could do worse than get bought by Microsoft . . . . otherwise I think they'll struggle.
In the meantime, I suggest that Tidal, Qobuz, etc, will probably get left alone for a while to appeal to the audiophile market such as ourselves.
Thanks Hook, had a fantastic time, third time we have spent Christmas & New Year over there, apart from great relaxation, my wife and I have become involved with some very small scale charitable ventures that we have started, something we may expand upon if we can spend even more time over there. It's weird, Gambia has just grabbed a hold of us, and we are emotionally involved now.
We were indirectly affected by the ill-conceived coup attempt on 30/12/14. Really, only Banjul and surrounding urban areas were on lock-down, the locals where we stayed did not even know anything had happened. We flew out using the national airline called Gambia Bird, which coincidentally ceased flying on the same day as the coup attempt. Too much of a coincidence for my suspicious mind. No reasons given for it other than non-profitability, which didn't balance for me when we sat in their head offices for pretty much a whole day with 100's of Gambians and a few fellow tourists like ourselves trying to find out how we were going to get home on our now non-valid tickets. All we got was being fobbed off with false promises. We eventually had to organise ourselves and were able to buy tickets on another airline at great expense as only premium class tickets for 5 seats remained. Not many airlines operate to The Gambia and all free seats were being snatched up very quickly by people let down by Gambia Bird. This part was very stressful, but we have learnt pretty much wherever in Africa, expect the unexpected. Hopefully our insurance will cover some of the costs involved, but I doubt we will get full cover.
Cheers
Allen
Despite the cost and frustration, that still sounds a great experience Allen!
I know those emotions you describe very well. Mrs. Hook and I will be going back to South Africa (and Mozambique) this April, and it has become a second home for us. But it usually takes me a day or so to remember to switch off my expectations of punctuality and efficiency. Especially in the smaller towns where we stay, I am always reminded that everything happens on "Africa time". ;-)
Hook
Apple and Amazon will become big players in this area and will do it well and their own way.
Amazon's reach is quite small. They only operate in 14 countries, with even fewer offering streaming music and movies. If you scratch the surface, outside of the US, UK and little bit in Germany, most countries get quite a limited experience. If it wants to play with the big boys it will need to be more aggressive.
Who are the big boys?
I'm in the UK so only see what is available here, but cannot people in the rest of the world use Amazon for download services?
In terms of users it's YouTube by some margin. In terms of paid for services it's Spotify and Deezer.
If Google can convert the millions of people who use YouTube in to paying Music Key subscribers and Apple it's iTunes customers then it's likely they could seriously challenge Spotify and Deezer.
Regarding downloads, Amazon hasn't negotiated digital download rights in very many countries when compared to Apple and Google. So with a few exceptions if you don't have an Amazon.inerst_your_country_code you can't buy digital downloads.
What make/name is your Toslink cable?
Wireworld Supernova 6 (1M).
Thanks Hook, but that is too expensive for me. My budget is around £50...
True Colours Industry Coral is a superb Toslink - as is the one Hook recommends, but the TCI is a bit cheaper
Thanks guys but I've ordered DH Labs deluxe - on forum recommendation on Toslink cables
Well for what it's worth looking at the service popularity rankings on Sonos this morning (for the UK), we have:
1. Deezer
4. Amazon
13. Spotify
20. Qobuz
24. Tidal
26. SoundCloud
29. Bandcamp
I suspect Deezer is number one, as customers have recently been given a free 12 month subscription with every Sonos purchase. Also note for those new to streaming services, there are many services out there other than the tiny subset we usually mention on this forum.
Simon
And for XX.Y% of Sonos owners, lossless is irrelevant when it comes to streaming.
Where X=Y=9.
I have no idea of the stats - however the Sonos controller is also marketed as a front end for hifi units - which is I guess is how most on this forum who own a Sonos, use it - which I agree doesn't represent many users in itself.
However both Qobuz and Tidal are listed as lossless on the Sonos service directory and they appeared number 20 and 24 in the service popularity roster (as collated by Sonos usage stats this morning) - out of 34 services - so it appears not totally insignificant on Sonos and therefore relevant for a worthwhile proportion of Sonos customers.
I have noticed on the Sonos Play devices (the remote speakers) which are far from 'hifi' but there is greater clarity and punch with lossless on these.
BTW I understand SoundCloud presents lossless if the artist has uploaded it as such.
Simon
Simon of course I don't really know the stats either, but I do expect that they are changing rapidly. And, maybe to the hi fi enthusiasts' benefit, Pono and its ilk will spur further interest in lossless and hi res music, and maybe even create more hi fi enthusiasts in the process!
Got the UnitiServe back from extensive repairs. It sounds better than before straight into the DAC. Then set it up as a server on the network feeding the dealer borrowed NDX (not updated for Spotify but will do this weekend). Next, set up the Sonos Connect coax digital out to digital in 1 to NDX and NDX digital out to NDAC.
Files from Deezer via Sonos are really good but a tad bassy and a little "dull/flabby" but fine. PRAT a little off but quite dynamic. Via NAS/UnitiServe clean as a whistle. So, Although not a Hugo as Simon and Graeme pretty interesting. I'll have it for two weeks so these are first impressions.
Mackb3, you may want to try the optical connection between NDX and Somos. Seems to work well and provides electrical decoupling.
Simon
In short, I think streaming will really 'take-off' once the recording companies realise its full potential: also when the balance between providers of the material and streaming companies has been properly worked out.
Meridian's MQA is perhaps the first step in achieving this. Meridian and Tidal's MQA streaming demonstration was very well received at CES last week.
I would not underestimate the potential for MQA if it is proven to be fundamentally true. There was an interesting discussion with Mission's boss and a head honcho of Atlantic at the CES show. As for the output technology, the Muso was rightly tremendously well received at CES, but so was the Devialet Phantom. If nothing else it addresses the 802.11 b/g/n discussions elsewhere in this forum. Anyway, here's a link to a white paper that may or may not be of relevance or interest to yourselves. I will certainly be having a look at least at the HiFi show in Bristol next month . I have a Muso working very satisfactorily over WiFi, using primarily Spotify and iTunes so no connectivity or playback gripes and have no Devialet products whatsoever. Just interested in their use of technology at the moment.
Mackb3, you may want to try the optical connection between NDX and Somos. Seems to work well and provides electrical decoupling.
Simon
Simon, thanks for the tip that cleaned it up. Thinking of trying the Chord 2Qute. When you incorporated the Hugo was it instant (totally transforming) or back and forth to decide your preference was with the Chord. Of course I'm assuming the 2Qute is Hugo performance without mobility.
Mackb3, if I am honest the Hugo was very obvious... I thought it strange at first and was a little suprised, and didn't post about it until I was sure it wasn't some sort of illusion.. my dealer also said to me a few things that implied I wasn't alone and then I felt confident to post about it.. I think I had one of the first Hugo's with the new expanded space around the audio sockets, and it was ahead of much of the hype and reviews...
Simon
Mackb3, if I am honest the Hugo was very obvious... I thought it strange at first and was a little suprised, and didn't post about it until I was sure it wasn't some sort of illusion.. my dealer also said to me a few things that implied I wasn't alone and then I felt confident to post about it.. I think I had one of the first Hugo's with the new expanded space around the audio sockets, and it was ahead of much of the hype and reviews...
Simon
Errr.. Not meaning to be picky but hype around the Hugo started back in January 2014 and there had been literally hundreds of posts on other fora about it and quite a few on this one before May 20th 2014 when you posted:
"I might need to try a Hugo DAC, but I do find the battery PSU setup and the limited digi inputs off putting"