Naim Lossless Streaming Roadmap Campaign

Well that's very clear then. 

Dave

Personally I would not use the word rubbish in combination with Spotify, I think it's good, just not good enough.  Compared to other 320 sources, with the exception of Linn Radio, it is as good as you will find, in my view.  Amazon offer you the option to listen to MP3s of the album you've just purchased, but my word the sound is terrible, really really terrible.  It's a strange strategy; I assume that's what it is, I don't think they could have made it that bad by accident.  

I have a mild case of upgrade disease at the moment, brought on by the fact that my system sounds better than ever.  And how ridiculous is that?  But I resist the temptation as I have no idea where things will end up.  I don't want too many boxes, so am I better to buy an integrated amp, or will the next SuperDAC also be a high-end pre-amp?  Or will the next streaming solutions deliver the  ability to easily integrate with internet streaming services we all desire, and with digital inputs, removing the need for a seperate DAC.  I don't know, but I would love to get an idea of where manufacturers like Naim see the future.

Excellent!

I agree that Naim is aware of our wishes, in a general sort of way. But I do not expect Naim to monitor this forum, nor use it as a way of judging potential demand for new features or services. The forum is populated by Naim enthusiasts, many of whom have already bought most, if not all, of the Naim gear they are going to buy. Naim appears to now be focused more on worldwide markets, and extending the brand upwards to the mega-rich, and outwards to non-audiophiles.

I am saying all this to reinforce Dave Dever's comment above. It would help if we all sent emails to Naim asking for lossless streaming, but I think there would be an even-greater impact if Naim received emails from non-forum members as well as future potential customers.

As I said above, I am convinced that lossless streaming will help drive sales of network players and Uniti products. But I am not at all sure that Naim shares this view.

Hook

Obviously it's upto Naim.. I am sure they can see where the market is going, but as Hook says they might have other priorities.

I guess if I am honest there are some very capable good value alternatives out there for digital front ends - exc CD. It might be Naim with its limited resources can't really play in this space that is perhaps somewhat alien for Naim and perhaps it will focus on it amps, speakers and it's all-in-ones. I personally would not have a problem with this.. and I feel Naim has perhaps overstretched its portfolio as it is.

However... This is where the roadmap could be helpful.

Simon

Gents, 

Do a Google search on Naim current price list. Can someone please explain where Spotify fits in?

As I said I don't think NAIM will be forthcoming, but it would be great if Paul or someone else could in general terms explain how these features like Spotify are implemented.

How contact is made the software/hardware challenges, maybe that would stop some of these ridiculous threads like Wombat 382 kb 128 bit streaming was made available yesterday why haven't NAIM implemented on their streamers yet?

Spotify very well may throw the switch to lossless streaming in the near future. Naim may already be aware of this but would be unable to comment on such a thing due to non-disclosure agreements. 

When Spotify goes lossless, look for the major digital music stores to switch to higher resolution sales as well.

I think 2015 will be the year the labels capitulate and a majority of music will be available for lossless streaming and hi-res purchasing, and all of this jumping ship will be for naught.

LeeTom, your post I feel, slightly misses the point that some of us are making It's not about jumping ship between public network streaming services. It's about choice. When Naim started down home network streaming, they didn't go for a closed system. They chose UPnP/DLNA. This means most third party servers, NASes and even some other clients could be used, albeit the consumer takes the risk for interoperability.... it seems to have worked reasonably well.

With Spotify, the development has been to enable the ND players to appear as a specific Spotify proprietry endpoint, as opposed to use more generic web services, which is equally possible, such as used by Sonos and others, which is more extendable to other services, but does require the creation of a GUI client. With Spotify, the browsing ability of the Naim app is effectively switched off and handed over to Spotify's app.

Therefore it is un clear.. is public network streaming going to Spotify and that's it? Is the current approach requiring bespoke end point integration going to have be implemented for every service? If so that will rule out many who use simple web services, not dissimilar to web radio, to work. As a few have said on this forum, these service integrations are DESIGNED to be simple so people can use them. It's not to sopposed to require extensive development and extensive development cycles each time a new streaming service comes on board. That's the key advantage of using web services.

Hence the request on clarity. The whole Spotify thing and the Spotify centric/specific way it was implemented raises the questions.

Simon

Well said Simon

Absolutely.  I work as a Product Manager for an IT Security company.  We get many many PERs (Product Enhancement Requests), in fact far more than we could ever implement and SW lead times are typically shorter than HW ones (Naim's business).  So we're forced to prioritise these requests based on :

- Popularity of request

- How well the request fits against our product line and company strategy

- Is this a differentiator for a competitor which is becoming problematic (i.e. they pitch against us with it)

- Is it a neat idea that would be a differentiator for us?

Naim explaining their mission and vision statement could help clarify for us without giving away commercially sensitive information that would be of use to Naim's competitors. 

Any potential investor would expect to see mission, vision and detailed roadmap, under NDA.  But we, the great unwashed public aren't going to get to see those things

You've hit the nail on the head, this is a fast moving area.  Likely this means that not all services will be successful.  Some will fold, some will be acquired, some will continue as-is but getting bigger and possibly dominate.

Being an early adopter can be risky if you back the wrong horse which is why fast follower approaches can be successful at a reduced level of risk.

Having never studied how quick Naim is compared to rest of market I can't really say whether they're an early adopter, fast follower or laggard!

Why not?  Market research normally isn't cheap but feedback here is very cost effective given you're only talking about the HW, hosting and bandwidth costs.

You would have to be careful how you used that feedback given we're all Naim enthusiasts (for instance, based solely on feedback here, would Naim have ever released Mu-so?) but that doesn't mean there's no merit in what is discussed here.

Exactly... This forum, although not neccessarily representative of all Naim's customers  I am sure represents the 'enthusiast' type of customer, of which I suspect is important to Naim equally as the other categories. This forum I am sure is monitored in terms of trends, concentration of terms etc like most social media can be. The technology (customer/social media  analytics etc) to do this is a lot cheaper and accessable than it used to be and is a very cost effective way of gaining market and customer insight.

Having worked in an organisation where there was a forum(not supplied by that organisation) the majority of the time it was ignored. As has been said forums are generally used by people with an affiliation to whatever the forum is about. I expect Naim are interested to see the comments, but it is far from market research and cannot be relied on. We all buy Naim or whatever the product maybe on the basis of what it is like at the time we buy it. If we want additional bells and whistles, and they are not available, then that's life. I suspect the reason Naim seem to implement changes and then release info a little later is to avoid the problems with product already in the network. It was certainly like that when I worked in the motor industry, when at that time, the merest hint of a new model would spell the death of sales for the existing one. Naim will know where they are heading, they'll tell us when they decide to. Even in a co-operative or partner structure (John Lewis) the customers and workers have little say in direction. Companies and governments say they are listening but on the whole follow the path/direction they have set. Enjoy what we have, be pleased when something new is added that is a benefit and not worry about what could be......as we have discovered with Spotify, the people want, they get.....and then they want more.

Hmm I do work for an organization that has mutiple online communities... Forums, Twitter, Facebook etc.. and they are certainly not ignored... But there are not armies of people physically reading everything... We have machines for that... Trends, and hot points are identified and looked into. Lose sight of the customer and you kind have lost sight of your future. One of the biggest changes in consumer behaviour I have read from the analysts is loyalty is not what it was, and individuals are more likely to base purchasing decisions by liaising, including online, with apparently like minded individuals or review groups. This seems to have more 'trust' than relying on the manufacturer or retailer directly. Although in our little world, I think many of us do have a strong trust with our retailer, but that is unusual these days it would seem.

Simon

The new product kills sales of old product is only really an issue when it's a direct replacement or at a very similar price point and I agree this is an issue in the car industry.  But for Naim?  Probably not so much...  For instance if NDS had been announced after availability of NDX or ND5 I wouldn't expect it to cannibalise sales of NDX/ND5.

Not that I actually know the release order of the streaming products!

I see Meridian have just announced integration of Tidal into their Soolos system, available early 2015.

Hi Graham -

I've been told that nobody at Naim has the job responsibility of monitoring the forum. Instead, Naim hires mods like Richard and Adam. Naim employee participation is on a best-effort basis, as time permits. That's why we see Naim employees like TJ or Paul contributing only sporadically, and I would wager, mostly on their own time.

I did not mean to imply that what's discussed here is of little merit. But I just don't think that Naim uses the forum to guage market demand or future trends.

Here's one way of trying to confirm this assumption...

Dear Paul Stephenson -

Does feedback from the Naim Forum inform any of your business decisions?  Thanks in advance for your response!

ATB.

Hook

...but if you could answer the thrust of the thread with regard to lossless streaming integration first, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

G

Hook, in the summer when I was speaking to a few Naim employees at an event, we got to speak about the forum, and it became apparent to me that although no one had a specific responsibility to monitor the forum other than the administrators, there was certainly a healthy awarness of general comment and opinion expressed on the forum. In fact I remember the term 'community' being positively described.

Simon

Hi Hook,

No one having responsibility shouldn't imply that no one is viewing.  I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of lurkers.

Paul does post infrequently but as the MD I'd expect he is often busy with other things and has minions to do the lurking

How is it a bunch of guys working in their spare time for no money and with no boss, no marketing department, no product road-map, no timescale, no project manager, no HR department, not even a Bentley have managed to integrate Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, bbc iPlayer etc. into Logitech Media Server so that folk with a £200 squeezebox Touch can enjoy all these services. And how is it that these same guys will usually answer queries on the Logitech forums in a timely and useful fashion? 

I guess because this is their "core business", for NAIM this presumably is analogue circuitry. For me the interesting part is that when last year I got into hi fi again after 30 years NAIM appeared like a visionary company and I got into it because of the streaming "focus", not because of the sound per se. Sort of a paradox that now they appear to be left behind (In terms of both lossless streaming services support and DAC technology (FPGA/DSD)). From a business perspective it appears that they have not really embraced the idea wholeheartedly. You would need to hire the best resources (in this case development gurus) etc... This is a business transformation and you cannot do it "part time/on the side", you either through resources at it big time or you will eventually run out of steam