Naim Lossless Streaming Roadmap Campaign

Exactly. Especially if one considers that apparently all streaming services are losing money.

+1 @Dayjay

It seems outrageous to me that the product I bought to do one thing won't now do something else. My car is diesel, but I'm now seeing electric cars popping up everywhere and I want my car to be electric too. How hard can it be to convert my car to electric? It's all just motors, isn't it? Should be a doddle.

While I'm at it, I'd like my Rega turntable to play CDs too. And about my watch . . . it's clockwork, but I'd really like to get the Internet on it.

However, there must be some commercial attraction or why would all these new streaming services be starting to appear out of the woodwork. Surely not just for the benevolence of us the music lover?

It is looking very much as though th market is heading that way in a rush and, if this is the case and the trend continues, you have to assume that at some point the model will become profitable and those companies who are established early and who survive will be best placed to take advantage of it.  It will be interesting to see if any really big players will enter the market  

Maybe I shouldn't have expressed my concern in terms of absolute or arbitrary percentages, but I stand by my point.

In the last 12 months if I think about the products or technologies that have left an impression on me, they all share one thing in common. They are the product of a sophisticated software/firmware platform or environment.

I'm thinking of things like:

- Real time Speaker Active Matching from Devialet left a big impression me when I tested the Focal Aria 926.

- Dirac Live Room correction (This was by far the biggest upgrade to my system. At circa GBP 300 pretty cheap.)

- Sonos's integrated controller app and Connect hardware which demonstrate simple, rock solid and easy to use streaming, with support for all the main services.

- FPGA DAC's like the Hugo which honestly sounds better than my DAC-V1.

- MQA from Meridian, which I obviously haven't heard but is terrifically clever at least on paper.

I'm not so much asking Naim to commit digital only, but to build out the leadership, teams and platforms to develop compelling products that bring us the best of digital and analog technology.

I know what you mean Allen, but to be fair Naim describe the NDS as a 'Reference Network Player' on their website and not as a streamer, not that that makes a great deal of difference I suppose

The business strategy of many is, likely, to get bought by Apple, Google, Amazon or Microsoft (etc.).  This is a tried-and-true strategy. 

Linn's Songcast is a clever way around some of these issues; anything playing on your PC or Mac can be streamed to your DS. Not a full solution, but a lot better than nothing.

I don't know, perhaps it's a rush, like dayjay wrote, and they hope to grow faster than the others.

I can some of those supplying main stream music getting gobbled up but there will be room for specialists serving more niche markets I would have thought.  Beats and Apple will want the pop and contemporary listeners but there are plenty of classical and jazz fans for smaller companies to serve

There's certainly a need for providers to consider their audience. What makes Tidal such a failure for classical listeners right now is that they offer neither gapless playback nor access to CD booklets. Both of these things are available from Qobuz. Perhaps neither matters very much for listening to non-classical material.

Hi AllenB !

I'm not playing the happy costumer, I'm just saying that in the past Naim always demonstrated that she cares about the existing products (and this is reflected in the high value of used Naim gear): so relax and wait for the integration of new services in your Naim streamer ! 

with respect.

+1. I tried to argue along similar lines above. I dont expect NAIM to beat all those competitors in terms of innovation, as already noted this is a small company among many. But I do expect to remain "in the game" by investing in really top notch software skills as the innovation agenda now clearly demands them.

The commitment to SQ (reiterated by the CEO in this thread) is the one that led, after all, to products like HDX and Uniti Serve which are, to a large extent, PCs. So NAIM did invest  in "hardware skills" to ensure a proper (SQ wide) ripping and streaming of the ripped material, solution. I read the CEO's message as saying "we will implement a similarly "proper" solution for lossless streaming". And I find this enouraging, albeit still not sufficiently precise. 

Greg

Well there might be hope yet, reading some articles at work today, Stephen Prentice of Gartner reckons the rise of the Citizien Coder [back to how it all started eh?] is imminent, he says this is where non specialist coders in consumer land and in SME businesses will be able to write their own bespoke apps using the increasing availability of simplified web services from web service providers, and more standardised and ring fenced software authoring environments, thereby avoiding expensive coding costs and elongated development times.

Also futurologist Dr Nicola Millard, an acquaintance of mine, appears to reckon the age of personalised web services where the consumer takes control chooses from a rich sea/cloud of serive providers rather than as in the past  of relying on one or two key service providers.  This appears to becoming reality and be increasingly expected by the consumer rather than just being a marketing hype.

i do enjoy all this stuff. Nicola has been forecasting this uni channel vision  for a few years now and it's great to see it all happening.

Simon

Most of you will be aware of the CES announcement regarding Super Lumina cables. Am assuming that for most of us this will be of academic interest only as the cost for these made to measure appendages will more than likely make being fitted for a Saville Row suit look like a visit to Matalan. So what has this got to do with streaming? Well, from the many and varied discussions on this forum it appears, in my opinion, that Naim has been struggling with the software aspects of streaming audio and is much more at home with the physical aspects of moving electrons from source to output. This may be a little harsh and controversial but acres of interconnects as well as Cat5 cabling are going to be for a fewer and fewer hardcore elite. Plenty of you appreciate the sound quality emerging from your Musos, which is primarily constrained by being a single box solution and small.

However, like other Naim products, there have been plagues of dropout issues with networks or Spotify or whatever. Let me give you an example from this morning. While playing Sam Smith on Spotify from my iPad and using Spotify to trawl this site, I started getting cutouts as I scrolled up and down. (Brilliant, the Muso has just dropped and disappeared while my B&W A7 is still there quite happily but no muso). There is obviously a conflict between Muso and Safari that B&W has never had. The concept of controlling and trandmitting wireless streaming appears to be quite immature for Naim that is frustrating their loyal customers (he says through gritted teeth). If you want to see the potential, shortened connectivity world, have a look at the new Devialet Phantom. I have yet to hear it but it's concept and packaging make the idea of multiple boxes and cables look quite antediluvian. Anyway, I must go and find on where the Muso has disappeared to, I suspect a reboot of the iPad will fix it. 

So, Naim developed new interconnects / cables for the Statement, is offering them for sale outside of Statement system purchases, and this leads to the conclusion that they have lost their way or given up on music streaming technology.

Ohhhhh kay.

And the Devialet Phantom, looking like a cross between a space helmet and a Dust Buster (just my opinion, so let that go), which you've not heard, is the future of hi fi and archaic multi-box systems.

Ohhhhh kay.

Did you bother reading my comment or just fall back on your prejudices? In simpler terms all I was saying is that with the advent of streaming music the path from source to output has been potentially shortened immeasurably obviating the need for masses of cables, interconnects and hardware. As to Devialert, I had the pleasure of listening to their 100 and 200 offerings at the Bristol HiFi show last year and was blown away by their capability, tempered only by the price, which would be no challenge to most Naim owners.

Again, if you had read my comment, you could also see that I am making no criticism of the output quality of Naim gear - it is lovely! However, they do appear to struggle with the background software needed to support streaming as evinced by the number of questions about various pieces of kit ranging from the NDX, the Qute and the Muso, giving me the impression that the Super Lumina reflects their own technological comfort zone.

You could also have availed yourself of the link I provided, which I think you did to be fair, and focused on the critique and the underlying technology rather than the shape of the product, but hey, if you can't get past the aesthetics... Actually, it's even more heretical of me to say so, but am wondering how many "legacy" products Naim will ultimately be able to support going forward? I'll bet that question is being raised more and more in their technology meetings. 

@andarkian

I agree with you totally.

What matters is the OUTPUT quality not the input it comes from, an obvious point Paul Stephenson for one does not seem to get.  How else can one explain the woeful USB input - a "convenience" according to Mr Stephenson who must have a sense of humour -  and the harum scarum chasing after Spotify and whatever else is "cool" (yeuk) this week.  Yes I'm sure there is a slight audible difference between 320MP3 streams and lossless ones and we audiophiles want the best.

But, Carey Street is littered with cutting edge businesses whose products didn't quite work properly.  I for one, would rather have well designed inputs which all worked smoothly rather than yet another one which does not.....yet 

I was tending to agree until the part about a slight difference between 320kbps lossy and lossless ... There is a huge difference for some ... Now I accept because of the statistical way the algorithms were tested on groups of listeners, that some might not be able to hear much difference, but there is a sizeable group who can hear significant differences. For me for example  one gives a head ache unless very low level or I am driving or concentrating on something else  whilst the other immerses.

But for the record 50 Hz CRT used to give me headaches as well along with old style fluorescent tube lighting... so perhaps I fit outside the average, but I don't think I am alone..

But PLEASE don't assume that 320kbps lossy is almost the same as lossless for all... for those who are afflicted such as I am i find it deeply disrespectful and patronising.

Simon

I can't believe the difference between 320 MP3 and lossless even on my kit. It's not a subtle difference at all. On proper high end it must be a chasm.

I think Simon raises a good point that we are all different in our perception of the compression. 

While not as good as Redbook, I really don't find 320 kbps offensive and it doesn't sound awful through my system . Maybe it is because I listen only rarely and only to explore or sneak in the occasional Spotify track into a playlist. I don't expect it to involve me the way my rips do and I am therefore not disappointed, but occasionally surprised (was that really an mp3?).

What does give me a headache are CDs that are mastered loudly and dynamically compressed. Hi-Rez, Lo-Rez, no matter - can't tolerate it.

SamS

If you are referring to 320kbps Spotify Premium then my thoughts exactly. 

Dave

we will not get more streaming services, other than Spotify, for the foreseeable future.

Allen, you make me laugh, where do you get this from... , you saw my post,  Its obvious no matter what we post about the situation you prefer to make up your own negative view. have a great 2015

Paul - You might want to make clear that '...we will not get more streaming services, other than Spotify, for the forseeable future.' Is in fact quoting Allen as I initially read it as a statement from you!

Best

Graeme

Ooh, I read it that way too. Might want to clear that up :-)