Naim Lossless Streaming Roadmap Campaign

Me too 

thanks guys, you have done it busy day!

And me. I read it 3 times before it dawned on me!!

from me jan 4th

04 January 2015 09:30

Allen,

Clearly something is upsetting you and I doubt if Paul were to answer "October 2015" that suddenly all would be well in your hi-fi world.

I think most of us appreciate that Paul cannot say "October 2015".

Let it go, your point has been made.

<I don't mean this to sound as dismissive as it does, it's actually genuine advice>

regards

John

SJB

Give it a rest you got an answer.

OK you don't like TOUGH!

Get over it.

@Simon-in-Suffolk

No, I did NOT say that 320 and lossless are the same.   They are not and, like you, I can tell the difference.  Like you too, sometimes this matters, sometimes it does not.  What I said there is a slight difference, which is true.  Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had said a "slight perfomance differeence" but my opening remark was about output rather than inputs, which should have made that clear.  (I also went on to say that as audiophiles we all want the best)

The point being made, not only by me, is that Naim would be better advised to make what they have got actually work well (USB, Spotify etc) rather than chase the next half finished dragon.

As Peter F Drucker once put it "Quality in a product or service is not what the supplier puts in. It is what the customer gets out and is willing to pay for."  I'm not happy paying for inputs that don't work properly

JSH - fair enough - not sure who said they were the same - I think it would be hard to take anyone saying that statement seriously.

My point is for many there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between common perceptual encoding (lossy) encodings (MP2, MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis etc)  and lossless where there is no data and information discarding. 

The interesting thing is that we all *perceive* this discarded information differently. Some only slightly notice it, perhaps even a majority -  and others perceive the difference as marked - its a statistical thing. 

Hence the term perceptual encoding - or lossy encoding.

There is no one simple answer. I actually am kind of  envious of those who only perceive a slight difference - assuming they are only hearing a slight difference - but I have no reason to think that they would say this if it wasn't the case for them. Also I don't think this is any thing to do with audiophiles - I thinks its more biology.

Simon

Allen, I am sorry if you felt my post was patronising it was not intended, just making a point, I understand the issues here and we are on it. There are many issues interfacing services which are private between suppliers and may not be obvious to you.

I have to say I don't envy Naim in trying to choose the right lossless streaming partner. 

While it seems to be the current in vogue market, once a couple of them have all the major catalogues, in theory there won't be much to choose between them as it's hard to push better quality on lossless streaming of material from the same record companies. It's not like multiple companies can source original master tapes and create better hi-def masters than the next one. 

And I think for me this is where the test of hi-def streaming or downloads is. I would rather listen to a decent master in lossy 320kbps than a brick-walled lossless one. Whilst the new streaming and downloading companies get to grips with the market and also the record companies, it's by no means obvious who will and won't last. Being first to market is no guarantee of longevity and ultimately until the record companies cotton on that hi-def consumers want quality 'dynamic' masters then they're stuck with a product that's not really what we want. 

I don't buy so many CD's these days because I think they're old hat, but because I'm sick of the loud mastering. I actually like CD's even for streaming as at least they come with a built in backup. 

Until a few of these companies have proved themselves with reliable high user base lossless streaming who do you pick? Probably one of the established big boys if they have a lossless service coming. Else you'll be accused of a half arsed implementation when it's not your fault, or picking a dead duck who goes out of business just months after you add them. 

Lossless streaming is not as high on my priority list as perhaps improving the control software and interaction with common software such as iTunes, as many of us need our online collections to work with more than just one vendors hardware, and at the moment that's not as easy as it should be. 

Likewise improving the stability of Wifi streaming would also seem to be something many would benefit from given the number of issues seen here and I've had myself when trying out an ND5 XS... 

Exactly. When you get down to the level of the preferred masters on your favourite music you realise just how limited the choice on the lossless services really is. You can't just go to another shop and find the version you want as you can with CD or vinyl.

Given the above and as the limited lossless catalogues on offer I agree we're stuck with a product that is not really what we want. It seems easier and better to stick with Spotify for lossy and CD's for lossless for now. Moving to something better later - when something better is actually available.

Hmm, not totally my experience with Qobuz, I have been pleasantly surprised on how often I get access to  different masters and versions  of some albums - especially if they are famous albums where remasters are more common. This is even easier and more varied with EPs where there are often different versions of the same single track..

And yes I can also find masters that are identical to the CDs I have - but getting the best master / version for me has been a little hit and miss with CD - with streaming you can simply select and play (ok some masters appear to be rights restricted to stream in the UK - but not many that I have found)

Simon

Wow, what a brutal world. This is hi-fi folks from a great UK company (yes there is a loyal following across the pond…ok I visited the plant in Salisbury in 2012 so I’m partial) and they can chose to do it their way and you can chose not to participate. I understand the criticisms as we all want Naim to blast above the competition and that’s the frustration. Personally I flushed the lesser-brained companies launching a new best ever model every 6 months years ago. I’ve owned Naim since 95’ and not the high range stuff but I’ve never been able to cut it off. Wasn’t like that with Linn gear. Paul in a recent post said…”boogie counts” and it is such a profound statement and the foundation of the Naim presentation. Naim will deliver a very good lossless option in time (hurry up Paul). I wish it was now but so be it, I'll keep feeding the SONOS Connect and UnitiServe to the NDAC.

M

Let's break it down, Allen.  If you were to hear, or believe, that there will be no direct support for any service other than iRadio and Spotify on the NDS for the next 18 months, what would your strategy be?  Sell off the NDS in favor of . . . maybe something from Linn?

Linn incorporated a beta version of TIDAL at the end of December. It is a GAME CHANGER. There really is no longer any need to purchase CD's.  Uncompressed streaming on the KDS through the 552/500 sounds absolutely STUNNING. 

I just purchased a $350 Sonos Connect to incorporate into an old downstairs stereo system which pumps music into multiple rooms of the house (kitchen etc.). It offers a gazillion different streaming services. As soon as something new appears on the market it quickly appears on the Sonos app.

Consumers do not want to or should have to wait for months (or years) before new services are offered on Naim digital products. If others can do it (last I looked more than a dozen HiFi manufacturers were listed on TIDAL's website) than Naim, imho, needs to find a way to respond to a rapidly changing and evolving market IN A MORE TIMELY manner.  Ultimately consumers will vote with their wallets. I know I have as I passed on a UnitiQute last year due to the lack of AirPlay and I might be in the process of returning my MUSO (as good as it is) and return to my old downstairs system simply because of the incredible usability of the Sonos app and the power it brings by consolidating all of the different streaming services in one single app.

There is a lot of competition in the new era of digital music with many players looking to capture consumers dollars. Players need to be able to react quickly otherwise they will be left behind.  

Err, well actually there is, if you want to own a copy of what you have paid for. If you prefer not to own a copy of anything you pay for them that's fine. There is obviously no longer a need for you. But what suits you won't suit everyone. And some may never hand over money for essentially nothing

I saw the Linn TIDAL integration yesterday. If I was Naim I might be weeping, although I'm sure this won't stand still for some years.

I think choice will be key for all of us Gregg and long may that continue. 

For me the game changer here would be somone like Naim announcing that they are going to provide HD streaming within the Sonos system They get to concentrate on delivering high quality audio hardware and we get all the benefits of Sonos.

Given the mass of streaming options available, the market must be ripe for a streaming version of comparethemeerkat dot com that allows you to configure all your subscribed services in one place and then presents one interface to your device(s).

Until something like that happens, I don't see how individual small companies can keep pace with the rate of change coming in this space.

It already exists - SONOS

As previously stated I just purchased a Sonos connect and installed the app on my iOS device.  I then input the user id and password for both my Spotify and Tidal subscriptions.  When I do an artist search Sonos returns two sections - what it found on Spotify and what it found on Tidal.  I then get to choose which stream I wish to listen to.  You can link every service you are subscribed to.

Game Changer in streaming, food program on radio 4 and womens hour for women who excel in their field. This is going to be the most over used phrase of 2015. Let's stop it in its tracks now.

I own a mark 1 left hand drive Renault twingo, I'm really annoyed that Renault have up dated this model twice and not offered me the chance to update mine free of charge. 

We buy what we buy at the time, it does what it does, at the time. To expect more is unreasonable. If a manufacturer offers extras along the way for existing products whilst developing other products, that's a bonus, not a right. 

Just because one company does one thing, doesn't mean to say others have to.

Well it half exists...

It's a closed system with no hi-def support. Sure I have Sonos and I could easily connect it to a Naim, but then I have two control interfaces depending on what music I want. Sonos for all non-HD, something rather less usable for HD...

Unless Sonos open up a bit to allow for higher quality hardware then someone will provide a service that does the same but for any hardware maker who cares to support it. Then I think their main selling point vanishes before them.

Just my view obviously.