Je Suis Charlie
Posted by: Iver van de Zand on 07 January 2015
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news to me that Putin ever ordered to kill civillians, not to mention how come he's on a par with the CIA and Mossad all of the sudden?
Come on Sharik, don't be so modest. Compared to Putin, both the CIA and Mossad are mere pussy cats !
I disagree with your original comment about the US military, which now seems to have morphed into "Governments". There is a huge difference between deliberate targetted killings of men, women and children by the CIA, Mossad and Putin on the one hand and the actions of the US military in Iraq where some women and children no doubt did die in very, very unfortunate circumstances, but most certainly not in their tens of thousands.
Whether Iraq is better off or worse off without Saddam is a matter of conjecture. I stated on this forum at the time of the invasion that it was an unnecessary and ill-judge action. .
Don
The way I see it, is the CIA, MI6, Deuxième Bureau, KGB and Mosad are all working under instruction from their government, just as a countries military does. A government is ultimately responsible for the actions of its intelligence service and military.
With regards to intelligence agency killings versus military killings I feel more sympathy for the 47 strong afghan wedding party wiped out by a US drone than an ex KGB agent poisoned in London.
A very good article about ISIS from the Atlantic magazine for anyone who has an interest beyond silly jokes:
Agreed Haim, I read that over the weekend and it is one of the most acute analyses I've read of the "ISIS crisis" I've read. Absolutely superb and well worth taking 30 or 40 minutes to read, and a brilliant retort to those assertions that IS is somehow "un-Islamic".
Originally Posted by Kevin-W: murdering Boris Nemtsov
if wanted to murder him, it was high time to do that 10 years ago when the man was still big, unlike what he's become now - a failure at politics, totally unpopular with Russians and not of any threat to Putin.
I must have imagined these protests against his murder then. How many there? 40,000? 50,000?
I wish I were that unpopular.
Half the crowd are KGB, pretty sure they'd have decided to man to man mark the protestors.
The way I see it, is the CIA, MI6, Deuxième Bureau, KGB and Mosad are all working under instruction from their government, just as a countries military does. A government is ultimately responsible for the actions of its intelligence service and military.
Yes. What you say is correct.
I was disputing your original statement, firstly that the US Military had killed tens of thousands of women and children and secondly the context in which you made that statement which inferred that each one of those women and children had been specifically selected or targetted by the US Military.
The way I see it, is the CIA, MI6, Deuxième Bureau, KGB and Mosad are all working under instruction from their government, just as a countries military does. A government is ultimately responsible for the actions of its intelligence service and military.
Yes. What you say is correct.
I was disputing your original statement, firstly that the US Military had killed tens of thousands of women and children and secondly the context in which you made that statement which inferred that each one of those women and children had been specifically selected or targetted by the US Military.
Don
I don't think I inferred the US military targeted the women and children it killed, I certainly didn't intend to.
But if I did, I obviously misswritt.
But if I did, I obviously misswritt.
Keeping in good company with Hilary Clinton and the New Zealand Leader of the Green Party I see.
doesn't look like that at all, not even the entire KGB could compare with these two.
news to me that Putin ever ordered to kill civillians, not to mention how come he's on a par with the CIA and Mossad all of the sudden?
He's on a different level to both. A gangster heading a government taking his people back to a time when they were in the dark ages. Tragic
I must have imagined these protests against his murder then. How many there? 40,000? 50,000? I wish I were that unpopular.
protesting a murder does not mean that the murdered person is given support or approval; those in the photo are protesting against the fact of a murder as such, not showing there support for Nemtsov as a political figure.
come on... by that logic every government in the world is a gang.
what 'dark ages'?.. the only dark ages in the history of Russia were during civil wars or turmoils like the 1990s time period. Putin doesn't seem to want that.
???
I must have imagined these protests against his murder then. How many there? 40,000? 50,000? I wish I were that unpopular.
protesting a murder does not mean that the murdered person is given support or approval; those in the photo are protesting against the fact of a murder as such, not showing there support for Nemtsov as a political figure.
Ah the old 'Pravda' mentality awakes!
I must have imagined these protests against his murder then. How many there? 40,000? 50,000? I wish I were that unpopular.
protesting a murder does not mean that the murdered person is given support or approval; those in the photo are protesting against the fact of a murder as such, not showing there support for Nemtsov as a political figure.
You're a trier, I'll give you that. Sophistry at its very finest.
Meanwhile Natanyahu, the war criminal is war mongering in Washington - addressing the Congress that Israel has bought with money given to Israel by Congress.
I must have imagined these protests against his murder then. How many there? 40,000? 50,000? I wish I were that unpopular.
protesting a murder does not mean that the murdered person is given support or approval; those in the photo are protesting against the fact of a murder as such, not showing there support for Nemtsov as a political figure.
You're a trier, I'll give you that. Sophistry at its very finest.
No more or less so than "our" side...
No more or less so than "our" side...
I doubt even Washington's most skilful neocon apologists would be able to out-spin dear old Sharik and his pro-Putin propaganda.
I'd say it's a good shout we're as much responsible for the terrorism there as the terrorists. We broke the country, it's government and all it's functionality which left a vacuum.
I remember the warnings before we went to war and they went unheeded. Act first and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. There's no arguing the situation in Iraq is infinitely worse than what it was before we stormed in there. That's before we even start on Libya and call me Dave wanting to bomb Syria.
Why are we as a population of white Brits not expected to have to go around making public apologies to the Muslim people for the actions of the government we vote and pay for in the way they're expected to come out and decry and apologise for every terrorist attack like the one's who attacked Hebdo? I find it a bit of a double standard.
Virtually everyone outside Bush, Blair and various neocon lickspittles agrees that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was a catastrophe, but I find your statement puzzling and rather egregious. While Western foreign policy and aggressive Israeli expansion has undoubtedly exacerbated tensions, it is not the cause of IS, or Al Shabaab, Boko Haram or the Taliban (although AQ is different). I find it puzzling that people like you and Dr Mark are happy to condemn the West for its incompetence and meddling, which is fair enough; yet are far less vocal in condemning those who perpetrate these atrocities - and to say "we are as responsible for terrorism as terrorists" demonstrates either a wilful blindness or moral vacuity, or both. The greater problem is a ghastly, arid and seemingly unreformable religious extremism which poisons minds and is deeply anti-human, with its treatment of women, gays, unbelievers, apostates and now, humanity's common cultural heritage.
A quick question for you - I don't think any reasonable person expects Muslims to "apologise" for the atrocities committed in their religion's name; but a similarly reasonable person might have cause to wonder whether the real double standard is from those Muslims who seem happy to march against cartoons of their 'prophet" but who remain strangely silent on massacres committed in the name of Islam - most of whose victims are, ironically, Muslims.
It's been posted here before, but this thoughtful article from The Atlantic magazine could be worth half an hour of your time:
No more or less so than "our" side...
I doubt even Washington's most skilful neocon apologists would be able to out-spin dear old Sharik and his pro-Putin propaganda.
I think Sharik may be a soviet sympathizer in denial hence the nature of his comments.
No more or less so than "our" side...
I doubt even Washington's most skilful neocon apologists would be able to out-spin dear old Sharik and his pro-Putin propaganda.
I think Sharik may be a soviet sympathizer in denial hence the nature of his comments.
He or she is probably a Mossad agent, or working for the CIA.
No more or less so than "our" side...
I doubt even Washington's most skilful neocon apologists would be able to out-spin dear old Sharik and his pro-Putin propaganda.
I think Sharik may be a soviet sympathizer in denial hence the nature of his comments.
He or she is probably a Mossad agent, or working for the CIA.
Nope, he's a sheep in wolf's clothing
No more or less so than "our" side...
I doubt even Washington's most skilful neocon apologists would be able to out-spin dear old Sharik and his pro-Putin propaganda.
That is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. Literally everything that comes from the neocon camp is a total lie, and they are much more dangerous to world peace and the safety of mankind than Putin could ever be. And the American "free press" plays right along with the game. Sure the Russian press is state controlled propaganda. But with our media in the hands of a very few (5 IIRC) huge corporations, it is essentially the same thing.
If you understand the Brzezinski & Wolfowitz doctrines, then everything that is going on in US foreign policy becomes pretty clear...it follows the script to a "t". And the deaths of innocent people present no crisis of conscience to the neocons and those they control. Since they control the most powerful economy and military, I consider them the most vile and dangerous force on the planet. They have completely hijacked the last 2 administrations (actually the last 3), and will certainly "own" the next one.
Wolfowitz, Kristol, Brzezinski, Libby, Kagan, Nuland, Krauthammer, et al are evil people with no moral compass. And the lies are as profuse here as in the Russian press.
Russia has its version & we have ours. And then there's the truth.
Arguing about degrees is like trying to say the child molester with 5 victims isn't as bad as the one with 6. There are no good guys.
No more or less so than "our" side...
I doubt even Washington's most skilful neocon apologists would be able to out-spin dear old Sharik and his pro-Putin propaganda.
That is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. Literally everything that comes from the neocon camp is a total lie, and they are much more dangerous to world peace and the safety of mankind than Putin could ever be. And the American "free press" plays right along with the game. Sure the Russian press is state controlled propaganda. But with our media in the hands of a very few (5 IIRC) huge corporations, it is essentially the same thing.
If you understand the Brzezinski & Wolfowitz doctrines, then everything that is going on in US foreign policy becomes pretty clear...it follows the script to a "t". And the deaths of innocent people present no crisis of conscience to the neocons and those they control. Since they control the most powerful economy and military, I consider them the most vile and dangerous force on the planet. They have completely hijacked the last 2 administrations (actually the last 3), and will certainly "own" the next one.
Wolfowitz, Kristol, Brzezinski, Libby, Kagan, Nuland, Krauthammer, et al are evil people with no moral compass. And the lies are as profuse here as in the Russian press.
Russia has its version & we have ours. And then there's the truth.
Arguing about degrees is like trying to say the child molester with 5 victims isn't as bad as the one with 6. There are no good guys.
You are a lucky guy to speak your mind so freely, there are others in other parts of this world who simply do not have the option to express their true political thoughts....
That's because in the USA, the "fix" is already in; the politicians have all been bought and paid for, and don't really care what inconsequential proletariat like myself think or say.
As George Carlin so aptly put it, "There's a club...and you and I ain't in it."
Also keep in mind that every email, forum post, web site visit, text and phone call are being stored, just in case they are needed for later use. So it is "freedom" with an asterisk...
Wolfowitz, Kristol, Brzezinski, Libby, Kagan, Nuland, Krauthammer, et al are evil people with no moral compass. And the lies are as profuse here as in the Russian press.
Russia has its version & we have ours. And then there's the truth.
DrMark,
Krauthammer is just a writer on the right with whom you obviously do not share views. Does that make him evil with no moral compass?