Muso suffering due to weak wifi signal

Hi Chris, Thanks for your reply. How does the Airport Express work? My Superhub would be in the loft, my Muso 2 floors below and at the other side of the house. I could connect an airport express via cable to the Muso. How would the Airport express be on my wifi?

Sorry if the question is stupid but I don't really have a good grasp of networking.

thanks Prem.

Hi Prem, I'm assuming your Muso can see your wifi network, just not reliably. The AE should pick up the wifi more reliably than the Muso's built-in wifi module. You just need an ethernet cable to connect the AE to the Muso. You might also find that moving the location of your router, even by quite short distances, can help.

Given your situation, I would try a new router anyway, as you've nothing to lose if it's a freebie from your ISP. 

I'm not suggesting what technology you use BUT, if you want to get the best from Homeplug then you need clean mains. It's ironic that people complain about homeplug causing mains noise when this technology wants clean mains to work! To that end, IF you consider homeplug (PLC, ethernet over mains, powerline, whatever) then go for the 'piggy' mians passthrough units. These have a filtered mains socket on them. Then plug the homeplug unit directly into the wall and arrange for everything else near/around to be powered via that passthrough mains socket using a decent mains strip. Being super cautious I use Tacima (sp?) mains strips. btw the power supply used by the BT HH is the noisiest (mains noise) piece of junk.

In my research it seemed that AC wireless routers in general have a better range in the 2.4GHz band than standard N routers.  That newer router hopefully would be the only change necessary. If you get intermittent signal now, it is reasonable to expect a AC router to give you better signal at your location.

if you can get that upgrade router for free then it is a no brainer. 

I wouldn't add another external device until necessary, which it may end up being.

I have similar problem when I tested the Muso.

The specification says: "Wi-Fi (802.11b/g) 2.4GHz".

That's not so good for a product released in 2014. Even my cheap Nexus 5 phone have both 5Ghz and 802.11ac support. The muso lacks of 802.11n standard.

The solid and nice metal cabinet without any external antennas does not make the wi-fi performance better.

I live in a apartment and receive about 30-35 different wifi networks in the 2.4GHz band.

I have to return mine to the dealer. Sad but true...

I think I'm in the same boat. I've downloaded the net analyser and all is exactly as it should be. The router is a Draytek Vigor 2710 and every other device (and there are c. 15 in the house) connects, and maintains a connection, entirely reliably. It's ruining my enjoyment of the Mu-so as it cuts out every 15 mins - 2 hrs and can take 10 mins to come back up again. To run a cable I'd have to go through 2 x 60cm granite walls and the router & mu-so are on separate electrical phases (ruling out powerline adapters) as we're renovating the house room-by-room. 

It's a lovely piece of hardware but you wouldn't accept a brand new car that kept on breaking down every few miles so why should we accept a streaming device that loses its connection with equal frequency? If there's a firmware update due in the next fortnight then I may wait for that but otherwise she will have to go back.

Do you mean separate rings or separate phases?

I seem to remember in a thread a few months ago that somebody suggested Muso buyers might be less tolerant than other Naim users of connectivity problems. Could be that they were right if this thread is anything to go by.

Both. We have two meters and three phases (lots of outbuildings). 

ChrisSU; I have to assume from your profile pic and name that you are in some way associated with Naim officially. If that is the case then I can only say how appalled I am at such an arrogant statement directed at a customer. Not only deriding 'mere' Mu-so purchasers but also suggesting that, in some way, it's OK to sell a defective product and not OK for customers to seek resolution to their issues. If this is the way Paul S thinks he's going to win broad support for a new commodity product then he's dangerously mistaken. Either way I'll forward a link to thread on to him and let him make what he will of this.

Ali, my only connection with Naim is as a customer.

'My bad', as our american cousins would say. 

Thanks for everyones help and advice. I have just spoken to Virgin Media and they are sending me out a Superhub 2ac which will hopefully cure my problems.

If not at least I have some other options to look at afterwards. I will post again once I receive the new superhub.

prem.

Hopefully that will do the trick.

G

Hi Ali B,

No - ChrisSU is not a member of Naim staff (as he has already pointed out).

The mu-so in itself is by no means a 'defective product' and we have no issues with customers contacting us for assistance if they have issues.

We know that most of the issues that we are seeing with products are down to network problems because the mu-so is being used in a more "plonk and forget" environment using WiFi rather than being wired. WiFi itself has quite severe limitations which become more apparent as time goes on and more and more people use WiFi as a 'no downsides' solution to networking pieces of kit together.

The assumption that people make is that a strong signal is a good signal and this isn't always the case, similarly people assume that 802.11AC is the solution to all problems but in itself can actually create many more as (at a simplistic level) to get anywhere close to it's theoretical bandwidth full 802.11AC presumes that it will have a clear spectrum to work with and in practice this is rarely the case.

The mu-so itself has been certified by wifi.org and the antennas are designed to work in conjunction with the mu-so enclosure - certainly there's no 'putting a couple of antenna inside a metal box' going on, one is built into the front panel and one is built into the rear heatsink.

It would be very useful for diagnosing the issue that you are having if you could temporarily run a cable between your mu-so and your router and then this would enable us to narrow down the issue you are having and identify what the problem is but to dismiss it as being down to the mu-so having 802.11g as opposed to 802.11n or 802.11AC might be a tad premature - especially as you have said that to get a network cable between your router and your mu-so would require drilling through two 60cm thick granite walls.

Remember that it is possible to link even separate electrical phases using Ethernet Over Mains devices if that provides a workable solution.

Cheers

Phil

Hi Mr. Streamer,

There are sound technical reasons why the mu-so has 2.4GHz WiFi rather than 5GHz - 2.4GHz generally has better range and is generally more consistent within a domestic environment than 5GHz.

You say that Naim should have fitted 5GHz to the mu-so as you can 'see' 30-35 2.4GHz networks from where you are but as dual band networking becomes more commonplace (and bandwidth hungry devices such as laptops and desktop PCs) move over to 5GHz then the 5GHz band will become similarly congested (conversely the 2.4GHz band will in turn become more accessible) so this ultimately brings us back to the simple fact that to create a reliable network you may have to go wired depending on your local environment.

Best Regards

Phil 

Phil

Following on from your earlier comments can you go as far as to say where hard-wired ethernet connections are either not practical and/or cost effective then ethernet-over-mains technology provides a workable solution and is likely to provide a more robust connection compared to wireless? This applies to not just the Mu-so but other streamers and audio equipment?

Dave

Phil, interesting comments.  My local dealer (who does custom installations in some of Boston's most expensive residences) has said that their number one headache is wifi congestion in high density living areas.  Customers want to run as much as possible on wifi.  Sometimes it's simply not possible.

Here in the States our construction techniques over at least the past 150 years makes it not that difficult to run cable behind and between walls of existing residences.  Good installers can do it, and the total cost is not that high.  In the UK, a 150 year old residence is "new" I have come to understand.  (One part of my friends' home outside of Cambridge (UK) dates from the 1600's.) 

Dave from my perspective - and I work in a space where I am coming across this more in consumer houses - Ethernet over mains devices have many variables to effective operations - and so it is a bit of a lottery whether you will get reliable throughput - irrespective of the electrical noise caused.

Now it is true 802.11 b/g are quite old wifi standard and so I could see Ethernet over mains being attractive in some environments when faced with those wifi standards.

However the later wifi standards such as 802.11 n include more advanced technqiues for optimum and more efficient throughput - and this was significantly enhanced further with 802.11ac. (and this has nothing to do with 5GHz or 2.4GHz spectrum or double size cells). Therefore, and clearly not relevant for Mu-so, if you were using 802.11n or ideally 802.11ac then I would expect the performance of wifi to exceed Ethernet over mains in many implementations.

With b/g its probably in the balance.  However thick granite walls will kill radio....... and that might limit and therefore  define your only options...

Simon

Hi Dave,

The simple answer is "Not really ..."

The proper answer is that it depends completely on the environment that the network is going into and on how much time, effort (and money) you are willing to invest in getting a stable enough network for what you need.

There's so many times that I hear "I can't run a network cable" but the reality is that if you have heating, TV, electricity and phones in your property then you pretty much without exception can do (OK - I acknowledge that in rented properties then there may well be additional constraints). The question is, is it worth the effort and expense to do so whilst 'hiding' it to the required degree to be domestically acceptable. 

I actually had *EXACTLY* this issue with *cough* 'someone who will remain nameless' here at Naim who I have spent years in a kind of deadlock here with over his domestic network at his (or her - don't wish to be sexist) home and their insistence that they *HAD* to use Ethernet over Mains units and several separate wireless networks and then having them grumbling about poor WiFi performance and glitching and dropouts on streamed media. Eventually they ran one cable between where their router is (in the loft) and one room which resolved a number of their issues and they've recently run another two to other rooms and then from there I have been able to run some eight port switches and - more importantly - a couple of Ubiquiti Unifi access points (the third is up in the loft) and now they get good WiFi all over their house (as far as I have been told anyway - I haven't had any grumbles back) as well as good network performance everywhere.

Phil

Hi Bart,

Customers want to run as much on WiFi as possible because they (generally) see it as a zero-cost-zero-downsides solution however if you talk to any custom installer worth their salt (given that if an install has an issue then they will get a callout in the middle of the night) then they will usually run with the following 'rules' ...

1) Never use an ISP supplied router as your main network router - either replace it with something more rugged / reliable or at least drop something more rugged / reliable inside it.

2) Use WiFi for portable / control devices only - anything that streams or stays in one place gets wired.

3) For WiFi, implement a managed WiFi network.

It's no longer prohibitively expensive to implement a managed wireless network. (If anyone ever tries to convince you that you can do it with half a dozen AirPort Express' set to the same SSID and WiFi key then I assure you that as the AirPort Express stands at the moment, they can't!)

Solidly built old houses that are more difficult to run cables through generally tend also to be bad for WiFi coverage too - I'm actually quite amazed if AliB is getting *ANY* WiFi through 2 60cm thick granite walls!

Phil 

Phil

Good to have your input.

From the example you quote my requirements are not so great but I have moved from a position of having ethernet-over-mains everywhere to re-positioning equipment such that the requirement for ethernet-over-mains is minimised. To this end my NAS, streamer and other A/V equipment are all connected to an unmanaged gigabit switch so that only my router, PC and a streamer in the conservatory require ethernet-over-mains to complete the network. I only use wi-fi for control devices such as smartphones and remote controls. I've found this set-up to be very stable and it has involved minimum disturbance and financial outlay.

To be honest I don't feel the urge, or the need, to do more.

Dave

Phil, of course your advice is spot-on.  I was having network issues (drop-outs) for weeks, which I finally traced to something about my Apple Time Capsule.  Removing it from the network, then doing a factory reset on it and putting it back in cured it.  But in the meantime I arranged for my dealer to send out their network guru as I was pulling my hair out.

He just left my home.  His advice? Same as yours.  Do a managed network and don't let the ISP's router do anything important.  He will get me a quote for them to sell me a Pakedge router, switch, and two wifi access points.  Given the cost, I may stick with my Airport Expresses and isp router 'til it breaks again, or may not.  I'm not sure yet.  (All of that is less than the cost of a second 555PS at any rate.)

As I posted some time last year, the total cost of my dealer to send installers to run a long cat-6 cable inside my walls for my NDS, connect it up to some existing cable, install 2 RJ-45 wallplates and test it all was ~$400.  A much better value than making oneself miserable over wifi woes.

Hi Bart! (Dammit - Why do I always get Lisa Simpsons voice in my head when I type that?)

Worth noting that it's a decent managed *WIRELESS* network that I'm saying about and not a managed wired network - managed wired networks can bring their own issues if you don't know what you're doing with them... :-D

Phil

As Homer would say, "Doh!" 

I could just replace the Apple wifi stuff with Pakedge unmanaged wifi access points, or let them do the managed (wired) network.  They do know what they are doing (and Pakedge support seems great, until it isn't . . . ), but it puts ME less in control of MY home network.  Trade-offs. 

Hi Bart,

I've had really good results with the Ubiquiti Unifi access points to date ... they seem to be solid and reliable so far and not too expensive either. About £170 each over here for the Dual Band ones.

Cheers

Phil