Winteriesse

Carl Czerny comes to mind - had to practice those wretched exercises until I almost gave up on the instrument altogether.

But I love Winterreise. The darkest corners of Schubert's soul are the most interesting...

EJ

Dear EJ,

I like art to lift me. I can find the darkness of my own soul without self-indulgent assistance,

I love much music from Schubert like the Fifth and Ninth symphonies and the Un-furnished.

But I find the enjoyment of death in art a point too far ...

Very best wishes from George

On a more serious note: can't stand Mahler's Kindertotenlieder. How anyone who has children can sing or listen to these songs is beyond me...

EJ

Well i don't know, but is that twentieth century, or else I would have counted it!

I hate it, and I have no children.

ATB from George

PS: I have turned the pages for a pianist in Kindertotenleider ...

PS: For hateful exercises try Gradus ad Parnasum for the Double-bass!

I must like repellent music; I love Winterisse almost as much as I do Wagner.

Blond genug.

ATB from George

Winterreise may be about the longing for and reconciliation with death, but not the enjoyment of death. I'm not sure I get your reference to self-indulgence - do you mean self-obsessed? If so, isn't that part and parcel of the romantic journeyman archetype? It's in Die schöne Müllerin, too, as it is in Massenet's Werther amongst others.  

EJ

Schoenemullerin is also self-indugemt. but not so bad. In reality I do not enjoy German Leider ...

Even Schumannn or Brahms,

I love some Schubert songs  like Red Rose or the Trout, but most of it predicts in a way that is horrible Victorian and nineteenth century German love of death that is the bane of a huge amount of Romantic Art. 

Of course Durer has prefaced the whole issue, but that is another  story, unless you want to discuss that as well.

Very best from George

That's cute, George. They were first performed in 1905.

EJ

Dear George,

Slow day at the office?  Or perhaps a few too many (judging by all the spelling mistakes)?

I am just unsure what you are expecting to achieve here?  You are taking a run at Franz Schubert and the complete romantic period and so I get it - you do not like Winterreise especially nor the romantic period.  Nothing really new.

If you do not understand it then just say so and leave it at that.  It is no different for any music.  With any music, if I do not understand the context or the style of the period nor can respect it, then how can you expect to connect with it?  I do not agree that disparaging something just because makes for a good argument.  

First thing I should remind you as well is that Schubert was not alone here.  Wilhelm Müller wrote the text and no one could have set the text to music better than Schubert.  Winterreise, Schwanengesang, and Die schöne Müllerin are probably the greatest song cycles ever created.  This is per my own personal opinion but I am in good company and not alone on this judging history and the fact that these works still stand alone unchallenged.

Sorry George if I might sound a little bewildered here as I do understand your tastes but this only amounts to you saying something like that you don't like the colour red.  We ask why and you can only say that you hate the colour red and that is that.

Is it a cultural aspect of your upbringing that has confined you in a straight faced prison that will not allow you to tap in to your own emotions from time to time?  What are you so afraid of?  Thank God for Schubert and a few others that gave us such beauty and depth in music that we can share and contemplate over.  He is touching on the human condition with which I hope we are all part of.  Death is a part of life.  This world would be simply abysmal had we not been given the gift of music (of all kinds) to give us all an anchor should we be bold enough to embrace it.

It was quite prophetic that Schubert was able to create such profound beauty as this about one year prior to his own death at only 31 years old.

I would love for you to somehow get this music and experience it in all its richness but somehow I don't believe you are open to it - period?

Regards,

Doug

Hmmm,

Like George, I too found Winterreise to be completely unlistenable.  Some years ago I had listened to some broadcasts from the Schubertiade on the radio and the announcers were waxing poetically about how great the upcoming festival was going to be as it was to feature the complete Winterreise cycle.  Rather than wait for the radio broadcast, and assuming the Winterreise would be similar to other works of Schubert that I was familiar with, I rushed out and bought the complete recorded set of the Winterreise on vinyl.

Rushing home, I quickly put the first LP on the LP12 and cranked the volume expecting to experience aural pleasure.  After about 5 minutes, not even halfway through the first side, I had to stop the playing.  I had not expected nor was prepared for this series of recordings.  Sadly, the remaining LPs are still unopened and shrink wrapped and on the shelf.  My wife forbade the playing of the LP as even her ears were hurting from the sound.

Shortly afterwards we attended a live performance of "new classical music" by a group of performers called "The Fires of London".  The style and performance by this group was of the same type as Winterreise.  Needless to say, we did not leave and endured the performance hoping it would get better by the end of the performance.  For us, this was not the case.  There were others in audience (possibly even the majority of the attendees) however, who found this work uplifting and immensely enjoyable, the exact opposite to our experience.

All of this to say that I enjoy many types of music but this Winterreise is unfortunately, of a style and type that I cannot enjoy.  This does not mean that others will find it immensely enjoyable.  I pass no judgement on these individuals as different things have different meaning to different people and not everyone finds the same music enjoyable. 

In the case of the Winterreise, the back story is really very interesting and somewhat engrossing and in part prompted me to the original purchase.  Unfortunately I can not say that the listening experience was as engrossing for me as was the back story to the compositions.

Maybe it is time to try to listen to the Winterreise again?

Sincerely,

Rob

I love Wintereise.

I think there are a lot more going on than self pity. I would be lying if I said I *enjoy* this music. Rather I am touched by it and feel compassionate about his pain and anguish. It touches me in a personal level.

It is rather emotionally draining to go through the cycle so I don't blame anyone who wouldn't like it.

However, It's the first Schubert song along with Der Erlkönig that I clicked with.

My favourite performance of Winterreise.

I have read Mahler's parents had 14 children. Except only 5 survived. 

From early on, he was exposed to early infant death.  Life was fragile in pre-antibiotics 19th century.

Alma begged him not to finish the  Kindertotenlieder but he ignored her. Only to see his own child dead from scarlet fever 4 years later.

He wrote to Guido Adler: "I placed myself in the situation that a child of mine had died. When I really lost my daughter, I could not have written these songs any more."

Winterreise is Weltschmerz in perfection and I love it. The fact that some feel so strongly about this Lieder cycle shows that it still touches people almost 200 years after it's inception.

Originaly posted by George J

Blond genug.

ATB from George

Mehr grau als blond, es tut mir leid zu sagen.

I have the Pears Britten Winterreise which, unfortunately, reminds me of this...DM at his brilliant best.

There was an enjoyable short programme on R4 over the festive break which critiqued the piece - probably on iPlayer still.

G

For years I didn't touch Schubert lieder as it was difficult to appreciate for me. With the Schubert series of Matthias Goerne I started to force myself a bit into it. And it needed some time. But it started growing on me. Things like Schwanensang and Dtandchen I started to appreciate quite fast given the fact that I listen to the tone of the voice and I don't tend to listen to the lyrics as such. In that context Winterreise has been more difficult to appreciate for me. But listening to it with the texts connected to it, it has a certain attraction. Will I take it to me to the famous island where I am only allowed to take 30 albums, .....no

As inspiration....

I couldn't agree more about Peter Pears, a vastly over rated singer in my opinion.

For tenors try the new recording of Winterrise by Jonas Kaufmann; totally different to Pears.

Perhaps thirty years ago I tried very hard to enjoy these dark songs from Schubert. I hardly touched on the German cultural symbolism of them either, but took the words and music at face value.

Over the Christmas Days the BBC broadcast a multi-part documentary on the songs, and it explained the symbolism of German culture such as the association of Death and the Lime tree and so on, and it brought back the creepy and completely unhappy affect these songs had on me years ago, but enhanced with the symbolism of it all. I tried to get to know the music at that time as I was to turn the pages for two recitals where about half of Winteriesse was sung with other lighter Schubert songs, and in the other Kindertotenlieder was the centre-piece. I think this put me off German lieder for life!

I don't think any of us should feel compelled to delve too deeply or try to enjoy works of art that may be acknowledged masterpieces if we find them disturbing and depressing in their effect on our emotional state. No doubt these songs are very powerful, but not uplifting for all people.

I think it is fair enough to express a critical view of acknowledged masterpieces, as many people are afraid to venture such a view, but may find themselves able to agree in their dislike or mystification of and by such music. It does nothing to diminish the enjoyment of those who do enjoy the music. Nor is it a criticism of those who do.

ATB from from George

George, I'm getting more depressed from your post than from Winterreise! 

Let's all agree that to those receptive to it, the work can be disturbing but also fascinating, a voyage into bleakness like few others. I have many recordings, but the one that strikes me as the bleakest of all is Florian Boesch / Malcolm Martineau. In a no holds barred emotionally exhausting account, they plumb the depths of Schubert's soul. Boesch frequently almost resorts to Sprechgesang; there is no place for beautiful singing here (although his voice, by itself, is very beautiful - it needs to be).

Cheers

EJ

Dear EJ,

I could hardly miss that BBC Radio docu. The Songs are fascinating, and after a long gap, I thought there was a chance to give the cycle another chance for me. Unfortunately the reverse was the case.

Last Autumn I was lucky enough to gain access to the Brilliant Classic Complete Bach Edition, and this significant addition to my music library has me examining certain corners of it that I consider deleting!

I think a core library of no more than 500 CDs' worth of music is sensible for me. That way nothing gets neglected, but the 157 CD is this massive set has found me with considerably more than 600 CDs' worth of music, and also I have found a great deal of new music [to me] in it which is much more to my taste than the epic scaled performances of much Romantic Orchestral Music for example. Or the darkness in some late Romantic music.

I am thinking of deleting some of it and selling the CDs somehow on Amazon or some such. The original discs are mint, and in the evening of my life I want to enjoy the profound, but with it all the profoundly uplifting in music ...

No reason to be distressed by an opinion on a Forum from someone you have never met.

Very best wishes from George

Bach may not pull you out of this mood, George. Here's a life-affirming work, written only a few years before Winterreise, that you probably know well, too.

EJ

Dear EJ,,

I only have five favourite Operas. Don Giovanni, Cosi, Marriage Of Figaro, Magic Flute and Fidelio. 

I know them all by heart!

I have Klemperer's live Covent Garden performance of Fidelio as issued on Testament. Fresh as a daisy, and powerful like Toscanini. Life affirming it certainly is.

In LP days I wore out the Klemperer studio recording. Worn to death with use over nearly thirty years.

ATB from George