Winteriesse

As this is turning into a thread against 19th century’s music in general, I’m getting a bit upset.

The 19th century is the first century with written music created by the middle class for the middle class, while in the centuries before music was mostly written either for the aristocracy or religious purposes. Which means music of the 19th century is the most democratic that ever existed until then. Along with this came the foundation of many musical societies, orchestras, choruses and opera houses that still exist today. The result of this was a flourishing musical life. Those of the readers here that were able to study music at a conservatory probably could do this only because of 19th century's effort to make music accessible to a wide public. There is not much to dislike about this IMO.

Because of this wealth of musical life, much output was created by blessed and not so blessed composers. Some of this music indeed is academic, overblown and boring. But even when discounting all the academic music of the 19th century there is so much music left to admire. And, to be honest, the n-th Baroque opera about an ancient emperor like Xerxes or Cesar in order to please the local court is boring too.

So if people don't listen to Schubert just because he lived in the 19th century, they are robbing themselves of a lot of wonderful music. So do those that ignore Mendelssohn's ingenious "Midsummer Night's Dream" overture, Tchaikovsky's, Brahms', Bruckner's, Mahler's, Dvorak's symphonies, Debussy, Saint-Saens, Bizet, Borodin and so on, and so on. 

Dissing 19th century's music is, with all respect, not an option.

Sorry for the rant, it’s over now,

JF

Hey Doug

Gould eh? I never knew I was in such elevated company!

i always enjoy reading your informative posts by the way, and as I said to Kuma I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as either him or your good self , just an enthusiastic amateur.

But one thing I do something about is visual arts - I studied it at University. I think I dislike 19th C music - and Romanticism in particular - for the same reasons I dislike it in art.

Painters like Delacroix, Prud'hon or CD Friedrich (to name but three) use thick, bold gestures with a palette that tends towards brown, dark red and dark blue. It's splashy, virtuosic painting and I find it dull, a bit "shouty" and profoundly ugly. The same with the music - in terms of colour, to me, it is ugly and brown and I find the gestures overdone. It's like being smothered in a thick, woolen blanket and then being jabbed by the person who smothered you. When I listen to, say Brahms or Wagner, I feel sufforcated. There is no light in Liszt, I always think.

My favourite composer is probably Ravel. He was a small, fastidious man, a dandy, and his music is neat, precise and very beautiful - and most importantly, drenched in vivid colour. Same with Stravinsky; and he has those fabulous rhythms as well. debussy's music I find intensely luminous. Bach has those layered, mathematical relationships - much C19th music sounds to me like undifferentiated sludge. And his music has the quality of stillness, which to me a lot of later Germanic music lacks. Haydn and Handel have a wonderful zip, full of the joys of the new Enlightenment. Schumann, by contrast, is heavy, pudding-y. Hopefully you know what I'm banging on about.

I think it would be fair to say that on the whole I like Early, Baroque and chamber music much more than I do symphonic music (unless it's particularly vivid in terms of colour - La Mer fo example, or Daphnis & Chloe). For example, I generally prefer Beethoven's small-scale music, which to me packs more emotional and intellectual punch, to his bigger works (which is not to say I'm averse to a blast of the 9th on occasion).

All that said, I would love to hear some recommendations from you...

All the best

k

Hi EJ

This is turning into a really interesting discussion!

Personally, while I despise Wagner's politics, that's not the reason I dislike his music. I dislike it because I find it overblown and silly - it falls way short of what I presume it is trying to do and be. So much shouting, at such great length; it is anything but immersive.

To draw a parallel with another art form - cinema - that I know far more about than classical music, the parallel for me is between an overblown, FX-ridden Hollywood epic and a taught noir by Hawks or Wilder; or the dream-like, Technicolor-drenched 1940s movies of Powell and Pressberger, or the poetic ruminations of Dreyer, Paradjanov and Renoir. One is loud and empty, the others do things that only cinema can do (and of all art forms, I think cinema is the closest to music, and at its best replicates the qualities we all love in music).

All that said, I'm certainly not writing off a whole century, I'm just saying that from what I've heard - and again, I am no expert, just an enthusiast - it's not to my taste. And, one of the benefits of a thread like this is that more knowledgeable folk can make recommendations for someone like me to explore. As per this and my post to Doug above, you will hopefully glean some knowledge of where my interests and tastes lie.

JF, please see my two posts above. i don't think this is what I - can't speak for George or anyone else - am saying.

PS - I adore Debussy.

Originally posted by Kevin-W

Personally, while I despise Wagner's politics, that's not the reason I dislike his music. I dislike it because I find it overblown and silly - it falls way short of what I presume it is trying to do and be. So much shouting, at such great length; it is anything but immersive.

By no means is all of Wagner’s music loud & shouty, I think the problem may be that people only listen to so called highlights, which tend to be loud, & not to the whole operas. Try Parsifal for instance, most of it is low volume & incredibly beautiful.

To make any sensible judgement you really need to go & experience a live performance, after listening to a good recording a few times. This is complex music that rewards a little work.

I do not despise romantic music at all, nor Wagner´s music, whose political beliefs seems to me irrelevant in this context. Some years ago I spent much time listening to romantic music, but this music continues (with some exceptions) to bore me deeply. Many romantic composers also challenge my patience, because they need two hours to say what Bach says in 2 minutes. Therefore I rather spend my time on the music that I love. Of course this is essentially a question of taste and temperament, and I think it is impossible to set objective criteria for whether Schumann is a better or worse composer than Händel.

Regards

Poul

Originally posted by Poul

Of course this is essentially a question of taste and temperament, and I think it is impossible to set objective criteria for whether Schumann is a better or worse composer than Händel.

I completely agree.

My mother, for instance did not like Baroque music, which she called ‘sewing machine music’.

I can kind of see what she meant; there is something machine like about a lot of Baroque music.

I enjoy pretty well all music from Monteverdi to the present day, including jazz and popular music, & probably listen to Bach more than any other composer.

One exception for me though is the "minimalist" music of people like Philip Glass, but I would not call it repellent.

Right, cool, we seem to be on track again and converge on the opinion that, even if not everyone likes all romantic music ever written, there's no overriding reason to feel 'despised' by an entire century's worth of music.

Of course, I don't feel alone if I claim that this period did not just generate non-despicable music, but in fact generated incredible amounts of breathtakingly beautiful music. What that is, is strictly personal. And back to Winterreise, which for me, is right up there at the top.

Happy listening,

EJ

I thought I'd let the heat subside a little.

May i post what is hopefully a quiet and considered thought.

Kevin correctly did not presume to speak for me, which is kind. I don't reject 19th Century music for it being 19th Century. Like Poul, I enjoy the music of Brahms when I am in the receptive mood for it.. I enjoy Tchaikowski's Symphonies, 4, 5 & 6. I find Schumann symphonies less appealing, but very occasionally I'll listen to any of them. I love Schumann's Overture Mannfred ...

But truth to tell the Germanic music I lam less fond of is the music after Beethoven. I am always ready for some JS Bach [like Poul], but unlike him have not progressed towards JS Bach's predecessors that much except for Buxtehude, and also Purcell.

I am sorry that people care so much that I may not be attracted towards Schubert's Winter Journey song cycle - very much I am NOT attracted to it, like much music of any era - but I am prepared to say so, because at least I am not in any doubt about my enjoyment even of what are generally recognised masterpieces. 

I note the comment that Baroque music may be compared [by those who may not feel attracted to it] as a kind of sewing machine music. I cannot agree of course. If one reads texts on this music you will soon realise that it was not intended to played with the absolute regular pulse of sewing machine, but rather be full of comprehending variances from a metronomic pulse, though not ruinous destruction of its rhythmic impetus for all that. I do think that their are some technically well played performances of Baroque music that miss the emotional point, and these are quite damaging to ever getting to know and love the music ...

I usefd to know a bass player who absolutely hated Mozart's music, whilst loving Mahler. For me the situation was the reverse, but each has h is cross to carry. Each of us inevitably feels the other's loss is the greater!

I was once asked if I like pop music. Truth to tell is that I do not like most of it - almost all in fact - but some of it has real value for me. I then shocked my questioner by saying that I knew very well more classical music that I disliked than the pop music I could recall that I disliked! I simply forget the pop I do not like, but who could forget a whole Wagner Opera?

I hope that you will forgive a thread that really was intended to find out whether others, who might be characterised as loving classical music from Hildergard von Bingen till today's Art music, felt my dislike of certain Romantic Works? In that I have succeeded, but along the way I think I also discovered quite a prickly over-sensitivity from some people who will brook no criticism of their favourite Romantic pieces, albeit notably accepted masterpieces. That I dislike certain, and possibly most, Romantic music is not a criticism of the music as such, but certain I am prepared to say what it is about the music I do not like. That is polite discourse, and no less. Healthy discourse for sure.

ATB from George

Originally posted by George J

I am sorry that people care so much that I may not be attracted towards Schubert's Winter Journey song cycle.

I do not care in the least if you do not like Winterisse, I doubt if many people do.

It is probably your use of the word ‘repellent’ to describe it that may have got peoples hackles up.

Why should it be a cause of getting backs up that I find the Winter Journey repellent?

I was being honest. That word sums up exactly what I think of it, masterpiece though it is acclaimed as being.

But as I explained, all I was trying to do is find others whose opinions I value who might also share my view to some degree. 

ATB from George

I have actually seen a reasonable amount of Wagner, a former g/f had parents who were both Wagner nuts - I saw Lohengrin, the Flying Dutchman and the Meistersingers. To be quite honest it all left me unmoved (the first named I found pretty grim) but I might seek out a decent recording of Parsifal if anyone can make a recommendation.

There are many fine recordings of Parsifal; my current favourite is Rafael Kubelik with Kurt Moll singing Gurnemanz.

I also have Solti & Karajan (Kurt Moll again), both of which are very good, also Hans Knappertbush, recorded at Bayreuth in 1962 which is very highly regarded.

Personally, I could not recommend the recent recording by Gergiev which is very well recorded, but for some reason his conducting of Wagner drains all the excitement out of the music for me.

Originally posted by George J

Why should it be a cause of getting backs up that I find the Winter Journey repellent?

It was just a thought. Repellent is not a word I would use about any music, but as you say, it is accurate for you.

Dear Morton,

There is quite a lot of art in general that I find repellent. Architecture as well. 

I think that you should not call a spade anything else.

It does suggest that these creations have a real power to elicit a response [either attracting or repelling], and so that is possibly to the credit of their authors!

ATB from George

same here, but i dont have the depth of knowledge that George has -- i just like what i like... and "Winterreise" is firmly in the 'like' category. the recording i have is a hyperion one -- very good indeed.

enjoy

ken

Depth of knowledge is not a pre-requisite to enjoying music and engaging with it on an emotional level; at it's bizarre extreme I once heard a musicologist describe in intricate detail why he thought an Abba song was so brilliant. Boring and completely irrelevant to the enjoyment of a great pop song.

For the record I think Winterreise is sublime and I would sooner stick pins in my eyes than sit through any performance of a Brahms symphony.  

Dear Bluedog,

A thing I adore about instrumental and orchestral music is that it is abstract in almost every case. With a man like Brahms for one example and Haydn for another it is interesting to me that these were nice humans to those near them. People who had found some ease with life [though Brahms had some serious difficulties with life as a young man], and I suspect that I might well have enjoyed their company.

I know it sounds a little picky, but if I don't think I'd want to share acquaintance or friendship with a composer, then the music never speaks to me.

When I used to play music, I made sure that my playing was at least as good for the music I did not like as for the music I did. Now I have no status as a professional, I am delighted to avoid the music I know well, but did not and do not enjoy! Amateurs have such a lovely opportunity in that they can be clear in their preferences! If Wagner or Benjamin Britten was on the programme alongside Haydn or Bach, I really hoped that no audience member would know which was my favourite!

On a slight side-note, the last playing I did after resigning from my paid jobs was in a small string orchestra made up of other retired professionals, some still active with teaching. We played without a conductor and had a very interesting way of rehearsing. Obviously the initial plan for the interpretation was taken from the leading first violin as is conventional, but during rehearsals the fact of having only have 12 or 14 players meant that no suggestion was beyond trying out, and sometimes incorporating in to the performance. Almost democratic in fact ...

In the case of Bach and also Greig, I often had suggestions - not least on tempi and string colour [vibrato or almost none] and dynamics, and crucially tempo relationships in relation to transitions ... that were welcomed. I often slowed the music of Bach down just a little!

After I played my last concert with them, I had a long talk with the leader, who was very sorry to see me depart for the last time. That was in 2003, if I remember right. She said that she would miss my ideas and playing, and something else I had not expected. She told me that when it was music I loved, that I used to lead it very clearly from the bass. The tempi were always correct and flexible but stable to the tempo precidente. I was surprised, because I never realised that I was leading. One clearly did not have to play loudly or with accents on the starts of notes to create a musical performance with real structure as well as - consequently - emotional communication.

I asked her about the music that I did not care for. She said, "Oh, you used to let me lead that!"

ATB from George

One do not have to listen to all of the songs. Make a play list pick your favorites.

Gute Nacht is a beauty;

What? Not even Sting, the Pogues or Genesis 1978 - present?

I wouldn't describe any of the above as favourites of mine, but nether would I call them repellent.

This morning, I rather flippantly posted the following in the "What New CD" I have just bought thread and George had asked some questions regarding my views, so I think it was best that this was moved here where we could discuss further...

===============================================

Franz Schubert:  Winterreise

Matthias Goerne, Christoph Eschenbach 

It is time to begin with Goerne's journey starting with this final volume 9 and working my way backwards to the beginning with some a the greatest music ever written.  Serious music which demands a high level of listener effort and involvement.  Not suitable though for the emotionally immature or if lieder is not your thing.  I find the ingenuity of Schubert to match the emotion of the text with the perfect musical response a treasure.

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Dear George,

Firstly, it is true that I was generalizing a tad with the opinion stated above but these words were only directed at me personally and based on my own journey and experience.  However, you did ask whether I viewed your position on this music as as either "emotionally immature" or "just not your thing" or both? (I hope I am not misquoting you here but correct me if I am wrong?).  These same criteria though could be a measure for most topics of interest and values.  

I am sure everyone at one point of other has wondered why someone else doesn't get what you yourself feel strongly about?  An extreme example for me was when I invited someone once to a piano recital.  My own view was this was an extraordinary event and contained miracles of beauty and divine intrigue while my guest spent the entire time counting the ceiling tiles and was not moved emotional or intellectually.  Wasn't then (30 years ago) and still is not today.

I do not like to think of these opposing views of ours as "disagreement" but rather as you state further up on the thread as,  "polite discourse, and no less. Healthy discourse for sure."  I hope you agree as I certainly do not harbour any ill intent over this and only wish to discuss music with like minded and well versed individuals, such as yourself.

Regarding the question of emotionally immature, this is not a question I or anyone can answer for someone else.  Each individual has to answer this honestly to themselves.  I can only observe and presume based on the choices made.  The second part I think I could be bold enough to answer as it is clearly written by your own hand above.  Schubert, Lieder, and the music and ideals of the 19th century are clearly, "not your thing."   This is not a value judgement by myself but only an observed fact.  You are absolutely free to make your choices and opinions known as am I.  

As many have stated above, I think no one has any issue with someone not liking something.  For me personally, I did find the language used to be over the edge and pushing the boundaries of good taste. I could hardly imagine a more noble soul than Schubert and his music (though not for everyone) is very honest and human and meant for good (not evil).  Referring to this music as "repellent" was distasteful, overly harsh, and not appropriate, in my opinion.  It implies these fellow human being had evil intentions and were evil themselves.  This is beyond allowing for the differences in everyone's taste that one expects when discussing art or music.

Using this word borders on the most severe fundamentalism we witness even today and it is far from rational.  Its beginnings are the stew of some form of hatred toward someone or some thing and it has no need of a reason but only a target.  

My original general comments do only apply to myself as I can easily point to my own journey as having points of emotional immaturity.  Only through education and intentional will do you rise above this.  These are low points that I hope I an continually learning from and growing out of.  While in these low points of intolerance and lack of maturity it is easy to understand why I could be stuck in a place "where I just did not get it."  Honestly, there are too many areas where I too am still stuck in my ways and truly won't get or understand most things in my lifetime like it should be.  I am just glad that I was able to evolve over the years a tiny bit since being a child and do not harbour the same attitudes now as I did then.

The truth is that I really could never to claim to like every bit of classical music.  In fact, I can only really get and understand such a small portion of it but I have come to the point where I can say that my lack of love or desire for much of it is solely my own shortcoming.  The majority of it that I do not get I just accept this and say it isn't suiting my personality or who I am as a person.  But some of the music I despised or had no awareness of 30 years ago I can say that today it forms a solid part of my most cherished music today.  I say this as I know that we all evolve.  Some slower, some quicker.  Either way, it is good to keep an open mind.

Best Regards,

Doug 

In thinking about my "emotionally immature" comment I think it is fair to say that this may be an apt diagnosis for a persons dislike for 19th century music with its drive to heightened emotional states.  They are just saying there is too much emotion in there for them to deal with it.  

Someone who feels that Baroque music reminds them of sewing machine music is saying the same thing but in the opposite sense in that some particular piece has a total absence of emotion.  In this case, could one not say this example and opinion represents "intellectual immaturity?"

My belief in music brings me to the point where I feel the best music has equal portions of intellect mixed with the same degree of emotion.   All music, whether Baroque, Classical, Romantic period music rely on changing the ratio between the mix of emotion and intellect.

The most hardcore Baroque lover though would rather see the ration of 100% intellectual vs. 0% emotion while a diehard romantic would push for 0% intellect and 100% emotion.  I believe the best is somewhere around 50/50.  The extreme of either causes it to become unidimensional and less interesting.

Dear Doug,

Of course your observation [which I have made red] is absolutely a correct one. A fact that can be checked. 

I did not hope that you would remove your post about the new recording from the other thread, but no doubt it will get as many views here as there! 

I do try to be precise in my choice of worlds. I dod not say the music was generally repellent, but rather that I find the music repellent. That may be a fine distinction, but it is one that I stick to. 

In fairness there is only one composer who has produced no music that I dislike. Even my ultra favourite Haydn has produced works that I find impossible to enjoy. One famous case in point [famous music not my view being famous} is the Seasons. This came after the Creation which I adore. I was so struck by the fact that I found the one alpha plus and the other a big bad gama in my appreciation that I read round the subject to find that even Haydn was not convinced by the Seasons, describing it privately, and I assume ruefully as French-style trash, which I would say was going just a bit far! I also suppose that if a composer goes on to regret a work, then he or she is probably going to be its most severe critic! 

But if you will allow me the space, I'll try to explain my use of repellent early in this thread. I find music I love attractive. It attracts me. the opposite of attraction is repulsion. Like with magnets. North attracts south, but south repels south. and so on. There is a good deal of music that I can take or leave that neither attracts me or repels me. Most pop music is this category with rare examples I am very much attracted to, and even rarer exempts I am completely repealed by. I have to say that the pop music that repels me is enough to make me switch station even at work, where this may not be generally regarded as reasonable!

I always make people smile with the observation that there is far more [in the broadest sense] classical music that repels me than attracts me. For example I absolutely am repelled by that huge work, Grurelieder.

I was once a t concert where Hans Hotter was Narator, and walked out in one of the gaps! 

In that case I had no idea what the words [impossible to hear the actual words in any case] were about, but the music was simply too loud, too dense. Overscored for too many players playing so loud that nothing remained lucid. 

In the case of the Winter Journey what turns me off is actually not the music - and yes Schubert seems to have been a very fine and pleasant human being - but the darkness and obsession with Death found in the words. I have to say that I have never enjoyed any aspect of poetry at all. None nor ever. Probably this is down to the regimented way of schooling that required a poem to be recited from memory and the punishment for failure was of course the humiliation of failure.

In fairness I find the 19th Century fetish with Death repellent in all its forms and artistic manifestations, and that is not to over-state my view. For example mausoleums where the decoration is done in black marble and the decoration is based on skulls and the like! for me this is nothing other than creepy and hardly enlightening or uplifting. I don't think that saying so strays over the line of good and poor taste. 

But that would depend on me being quite as happy to accept that others hold completely different views! And I do.

So long as we respect each others as humans and at least accept that their different views are held in good faith, then it remains polite discourse, ... I think!

On your point about evolving. I know I have. When I was twenty I would have been more in tune with the romantic period of classical music, and much less with at least large parts of the baroque and classical eras. In those days I used to also listen with open eared amazement [not exactly attraction, but amazement] to Stockhausen!

ATB from George

PS: Please do accept that spelling German is hardly my first strength!

PPS: That long and much thought about reply was almost lost. How frustrating that would have been!

Dear George,

I believe I understand your view and I respect it fully.  In fact, I find that I agree with many of your points, which leads me to believe that I may not have done such a great job in explaining my views on this in the first place.  If I may, I am only expanding my point here for my benefit, as I do not want to give the wrong impression.  I am absolutely OK with your views about this and as usual I write what I write mostly to continue a discussion I am having with myself to confirm what it is I am thinking and why.

I must confess I am not entirely clear on your meaning of:

I dod not say the music was generally repellent, but rather that I find the music repellent.

The further example of the magnets suddenly made me think I understand but then afterward I still had questions.  In this way, the implication is that there is a force within the music that acts to cause the momentum against another object (us humans).  It either pulls you in or pushes you away.  In other words, this is not about taste, opinion, style, personality etc. but rather a mechanical function that reacts precisely the same way each time and governed by some physical law.  For example, north and south always attract each other and like poles always repel.  

So when you say that music attracts me or repels me in the sense of a verb, in my mind I believe this is in alignment with your magnet illustration.  But then, with this I don't believe you could have some liking something while others despise it because this would go against a natural law.

Alternatively, if you are using this word as an adjective then there is a more interesting overtone.  Attractive would mean that it is pleasing or appealing to the senses.  It could also mean inviting or not ugly.

Repellent though has to mean, in the sense of music, that it is causing disgust or distaste.  This is the opposite of being delightful or attractive.

My view of music such as Winterreise here is that it may be entirely centered around extremely challenging topics such as unrequited love, or the struggles of life including a view on doom, gloom, and death but this does not categorize the music for me as repugnant or abhorrent.  I either like it or I don't.

I would go further to say, in contrast, that Ozzy biting the head off a bat on stage and singing with the blood dripping down his chin fits the definition of repellent and could justly be defined as disgusting or distasteful.  Many may not like the music of Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Liszt, Schumann etc. but I would never understand how someone suggest that it is disgusting or distasteful.  Even the music I find the most vile I would not say this against it but only that I do not like it or find it to my taste.

So I am entirely fine when someone says that they do not understand a certain musical style or period and cannot relate to it.  I respect this as beauty is always in the eye of the beholder and that there is no such thing as “an ugly duckling.”  Everyone is entitled to an opinion which matches there beliefs or character.

As to emotional maturity, I find comfort in classical music that addresses the whole range of emotions and stages of life (from there view).  Today, it is mostly frowned upon and people would rather go through life avoiding reality.  In North America, it is an epidemic as everyone spouts on about only happiness while clothed in shallowness and drown or hide there sorrows with prescriptions or drugs to dull the pain they so desperately need to hide out of shame.  If you have the look, the money, the job, the friends then you automatically are happy, according to Hollywood.  Don’t talk about life or death or human emotion, as this is a sign of weakness.

Emotional immaturity is, in my view, the inability to be able to be open to or be in tune with your emotions.  Avoiding any emotion entirely is the worst case.  Having nothing but emotion is also a worst case.  Being in either of these positions is a sign of immaturity, in my opinion.

I believe in honesty.  Those who pretend that life is just always a bed of roses are deluded in my view.  There is good and there is bad, there are mountains and there are valleys and no one can expect only good or to remain on the mountaintop. 

It might be like a beautiful baby that some proud parents tote around and show off at the supermarket.  Other times they bring the devil and the rein of terror begins.  There are moments when this child with big blue eyes is the very definition of everything that is good and other times you would rather quickly like to forget this image.  A child can be angelic and happy at times or they can also kick and scream, slobber, puke, and shit their pants.  As a parent you love this child in every situation because you understand that this is life.   Love does not always mean easy or that it is based on anything likeable.

While much of raising a child can be hard you cannot avoid it.  One cannot fully understand this until you are a parent.  To read a story or listen to someone else describe his or her journey through a happy or difficult period means something.  It is nice to know that we are not alone in this and that others experience the ups and downs too.  It is a comfort and in the end it may even teach us something like that through any struggle there is always hope and a silver lining to hold out for.   This is why we read literature, listen to music, and ponder art.  If it were always only about one topic (happiness) this would get boring rather quickly.

In this case where we are discussing Winterreise, I believe it is not the only viewpoint but a valid viewpoint nonetheless because it is about life or one aspect of it. You may not relate to it for most of your life (because you are healthy, things are going good, no one has broken your heart or you think you will live forever) but at some point it might make sense or maybe you can avoid it and then never.  In any case, I do not want to give the impression that for some dealing with painful issues is not difficult or should be faced head on.  If something is traumatic to you then it should be avoided.

In my own case, being that I play the piano, I have never really focused on the words.  My sense of the music is purely unspoken.  The music alone tells me everything I need to know and this is only due to Schubert’s extraordinary gift of perception.  This may be only true for myself but I actually only was taken in by many of these lied when I personally played them on the piano and from this I have found worlds beyond what I would get from listening to a recording.  When you cannot experience the emotion of a piece of music (even vicariously) this is a sign that you are not getting the composers message of what they want to say.  This is why I can understand opposing viewpoints here and why I can state that it may be difficult to understand as I was there in that place and position too initially years ago.  It is not for the masses and best experienced alone without the influence of others and what is going on around you.

It is something I can’t explain but the music that deals with deep or dark topics is not literally sad or depressing for me or as you view a mausoleum etc.   I find it uplifting and redeeming.  To play music that floods your body with emotion and even tears is cathartic.  I believe in tears of joy even though this statement is easily misconstrued and hard to explain perfectly.  You have to experience it.  Every good composer has dealt with all these topics as music is an expression of life and life is not always good and it is not always bad.  It is journey.  We will all experience spring, summer, fall, and winter of our life whether we acknowledge it or not.

Even Schubert’s own circle of friends were initially bewildered on first hearing Winterreise.  Schubert’s response to them was that, “I like these songs better than any others, and you will come to like them as well.”  And in my case, Schubert was right.

Apologies for being consistently long winded despite my feeling that in the end I still haven't expressed my true point.  Conciseness was never my strong point. 

Best Regards,

Doug

PS:  So long as we respect each others as humans and at least accept that their different views are held in good faith, then it remains polite discourse, ... I think!

=> Absolutely George!  And I hope this is always the case.