BBC Web Streams

That seems like a pretty good statemen to met. It accepts the problem, describes the challenges, but most importantly offers a resolution. 

And I'll stick with my SB's.

Dave

I'm sticking with good old steam powered FM for BBC.  

R-3 FM  is better than iRadio 320k anyhow 

But I'm told BBC Five Live & Sports Extra is pretty rubbish.

Dave

This would also appear to have taken Sonos by surprise. I got the strong impression from thier early communication that they were guiding people to accept a quality reduction, because they could still get the BBC. It was only after they realised the interim mp3 streams were international only and that British users would miss out on sport etc. they started to get more actively engaged.

Dear Dave,

I know I am rarely part of a popular sector or majority, but as far as I am concerned, it would not displease me to never encounter any reference to sport ever again on the radio!

As sport that is reported and covered in that media is now a commercial circus, I see no reason for the public service BBC having anything to do with it.

It could be completely catered for in the commercial media sector, such as Sky ...

ATB from George

And what makes you think that the rest of us who do like Sport want to have anything to do with the commercial circus either - especially that cesspit of an organisation called Sky?

You will not avoid the need for commercial sector media coverage of sport as the highest bidder gets the rights to broadcast. Hence the recent football deal.

If you want live coverage rather than highlights you will need to go commercial.

For myself, if commercial sport wants to be promoted on public service broadcasting it should pay the broadcaster and not be paid for the very considerable privilege of being broadcast at involuntary public expense.

I believe that the BBC should concentrate on the much healthier amateur scene, where money is not the object, but joie de vivre  is the point. Rather than fat cat over paid cheating prima dona players!

ATB from George

George

My comment re: BBC Radio 5 and FM, was said with tongue firmly in my cheek. No need to start a debate on the merits, or otherwise, of commercial sport. But while we're on the subject I think you'll find "fat cat over paid (cheating?) prima dona's" in many fields not least classical music. IMHO of course.

Dave

Hard to ignore that Dave, given the reference to something that I do have an interest in!

I wonder how a musician can cheat except in the recording studio. Of course cheating in the studio is expected by a record buying public who would be disappointed by any faults not being corrected with edited patching ... I do not like this practice, widespread at least since the 1960s ...

As for fat cats, well yes the most famous have earned inordinate amounts as well. Opera stars, Herbert van Karajan at the head oaf a list of overpaid conductors, while some of the best did never make much more than a GP's income and so on. And rank and file players earning less than a primary school teacher for example.

For myself, I have never approved of state funding for classical music as it only helps make the richest richer rather than benefitting music performance at the broadest levels, or improving standards. I personally would shut the Arts Council down the day after being elected ...

Anyway, I think that we should not pursue this off-topic aside, but start a new thread in the Padded Cell if you want to go deeper into it!

Very best wishes from George

David, I am not sure the three approaches you posit should be considered mutually exclusive. I tend to think that a succesfull strategy needs to balance these alternatives.

It makes little sense to squeeze flexible commodity software -- UPnP clients or music players, for concreteness -- into dedicated devices. Naim is doing this with its streamers range and this is a big mistake in my view. Commodity software has better to be open, it needs to be easy to upgrade and modify and live on an external commodity device.

But dedicated devices -- with decent but not disproportionate computing power -- are certainly the right place for high-value, dedicated, hardware specific software to live. And where truly innovative solutions can be exploited and protected.

But even a balanced strategy -- commodity software on commodity devices and truly innovative hardware specific solutions on dedicated devices -- would have important implications on Naim's current range of source and transports.

A first implication would be the need to market a box for commodity software. A Naim commodity shoebox would be running an open, headless OS, come with high quality input and outputs ports, linear power supply and with basic Naim applications. It would be a welcome new for those users who have been waiting for a reincarnation of the uServe for quite some time.

A second implication would be that the "raison d'être" of the current range of streaming devices would be questioned. This might sound heretical at the first glance. But -- in the overpopulated Naim ecosystem -- it would lead to a better understandable, less baroque range of components. And it would make some place for more dedicated components like for instance thin ethernet-to-SPDIF converters.

All very interesting as an academic debate, but rather straying from the BBC radio theme of this thread. Thank you to trevor wilson for your explanation of how the BBC got us into this mess. It is disgraceful. If they had made HD tv unavailable to half the viewers there would be uproar.

BBC have compromised ( in Naim and Linn) two of our greatest niche tech companies and made it look like they do not know what they are doing. No doubt others are equally affected. This just another example of the BBC luvvie living in their own bubble and, like politicians, oblivious to the public!!

hi all

ive placed a post here that details a little more on what we know

Trevor

Good luck! It seems like the BBC's poor communication has caused most hifi manufacturers a lot of work.

I can't disagree. I think living in their own bubble would appear very apt.. The one silver lining, I think given this complete utter shambolic Streamergate episode switching FM off has been significantly more difficult!

Simon

So the issue affects vTuner, TuneIn, Sonos, Naim, Linn and Cambridge Audio, but doesn't affect Squeezebox. Are we saying that it only works from the Beeb's website and iPlayer + SB? 

Is it an issue with the streamers or VTuner and TuneIn or both?

Keith

The switch-over, or should that be switch-off, did affect SB products but the Logitech Community got it sorted so that the BBC HLS stations can be received. And all in 24hrs! At least that is my experience.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes I know. I was wondering if Naim has to update its streamers or the problem is with VTuner? 

Phil Harris has previously said that VTuner's function is to provide a search engine, and the streams simply pass through (apologies if I've misunderstood you Phil). This suggests the issue is with Naim, Linn etc.). However, I may have this completely wrong.

Keith

hi guys

vTuner acts as a internet radio station aggregator (it collates the stations listings (including the URL to playback)). as such this isnt a vTuner issue, this is a simple scenario:

The BBC have altered the delivery format into HLS, and the Naim do not yet support it.

i've other scenario queries out with various markets to see if anything else like this is coming (mainly from other national broadcasters) - if we have to open the engine room up to support HLS - now is a good time to find out if anything else is coming

p.s. if anyone knows of an impending format change in other markets, please let me know - ideally via support@naimaudio.com - thanks

Trevor

Thanks Trevor,

So what you are saying is that it's not terminal for Naim streamers - it's unsupported format which can be added (via a firmware upgrade?), but this is not a five minute job and needs to be done properly?

Keith

Hi keith

correct on all points

Trevor

As suggested, I've gone back to the MP3 streams, and they certainly don't sound as good.

More work for the beta testers methinks.

Trevor thanks for the update. I can sympathise, from where I am looking the BBC migration looks ill considered and shambolic... using other media this would have been considered completely unacceptable. Perhaps it shows a level of immaturity with the BBC and online streaming technology...

My thanks as well Trevor. Difficult environment to work in when you're just one of the links in the chain!

If I can add my thoughts to whole "episode"....it seems as though the driver for change has really been from the website team(s) and they've looked to the likes of audio specialists to support them. I imagine the demand must be absolutely booming and it struck me last night that there are probably some external influences driving this...

1. the Cricket World Cup. If I'm listening to the cricket then I imagine a whole ton of people in Asia are too and that'll be a massive demand issue, especially if you're back-end is already creaking under the strain...

2. there's a new BBC website skin launching or about to be launched...that'll likely drive short term traffic, if not longer term...

So yes I do get the feeling that it's been rushed and not resourced well. The choice of formats appear to support the "demand management" scenarios rather than being focused on what customers actually want or are currently using.

I am surprised they aren't more on the ball given the multi million £££ push for DAB radio, but perhaps that's a long term story that the BBC and market are sick of now?

It could just be that the BBC want to discourage internet access, the growth in which would presumably place an increasing load on their servers, and want people to accept DAB, which would just mean a steady transmitter broadcast?

Thanks again to Trevor for your assurances regarding the future access to HLS (and whatever other nefarious devices from broadcasters ). 

While FM is clearly superior, switch-off will occur sometime (the way the BBC operate it could be next week, what do they care!) and relatively high bitrate internet seems to be the current best alternative. Maybe FLAC will come one day if on demand FLAC streaming (qobuz etc) becomes a standard.

Hope I live that long!