The Serenity of the Music of JS Bach

Dear nbpf,

I think the more one listens to Bach [and knows about his music from reading about the compositional technique and his attitude to music] the more one becomes aware of the discord and its significance as a device for emotional expression. And the significance of harmonic tension, particularly in the context of counterpoint.

With Bach the dissonance is prepared and then given its weight in the context and finally resolved. It is the very resolution of the discord that gives it expressive significance. The discord takes its significance from its context and resolution within the harmonic and melodic setting.

Many years ago I was having a talk with another person who found Bach the most satisfying of composers, and tried to find an example of Bach actually making a mistake! A mistake in the sense that he had botched a cadence or failed to resolve a dissonance. We found just one. A lead back bar in one of the Organ Trios, which simply does not make harmonic sense if the repeat is made.  We looked at how organists dealt with this repeat lead back bar,...

Two solutions were apparent. For the repeat MC Alain played a bar with the harmony "repaired", and H Walcha omitted the repeat in that instance. It may well be worth adding that the likely reason Walcha omitted the repeat was that the recording was on a 78 side of about four minutes long, and so the repeat would have required an extra side to ne made.

It says something for the precision of Bach that one can actually say that there is a mistake that can be easily corrected..

Very much in the way that one can read some written English and say categorically that there is some faulty grammar! It can be corrected, and you can be sure that the author certainly intended the corrected version!

When one is confronted with such completeness and correctness in music, combined with Bach's total mastery of expressivity in his composing style, I find myself questioning why I would have much time for any other music. 

You mention a feeling of unease that you would not want to miss. This is the exact opposite to me. I never want unease from artworks. There is enough in real life without looking for more, as far as I am concerned. In music I look for uplift in the totality rather than leading me to the edge of the abyss in misery and human failings. 

I do not know if that helps you with you idea that my preference for Bach's music is more than a matter of "subjective preference." ...

I am sure that the attraction I find in Bach's music is entirely from the music itself. It is simply more attractive for me than other music on the whole. There is music that once attracted me more than it does now, where the former attractiveness seems to have completely evaporated in some cases. Perhaps that will happen to me with Bach in the end, but I suspect not. 

ATB from George

A fine example of joie de vivre in Bach.  So gentle, and yet so joyous!

Organ Trio Number One, Finale [third movement].

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVaHkCO9IVI

There are six Trios of the type each with three movements. Absolutely marvellous! 

ATB from George

Sorry, I could not find an official translation. The sentence should mean something like "A man has made an experience, now he looks for the story of his experience" but neither German nor English is my mother tongue, so take it with some care. Maybe someone can provide a better translation. It's right at the beginning of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gantenbein, if I remember correctly. I think the idea is that a "naked" experience does not exist: it can be done, but then it has to be wrapped in a story -- maybe more stories -- for us to digest it. Best, nbpf

In a way, trying to understand the evolution of what pleases a person at different stages in their life, I simply accept this as a mystery!

I know that forty years ago, I would not have succeeded in listening to the Art Of Fugue in one go, or probably even one section. I simply had no access to the music in the sense of understanding it, or it having any effect on me at all. I found it fascinating, but incomprehensible. 

With the Art Of Fugue the change came about ten or fifteen years ago when I discovered Helmut Walcha's recording - played on the organ rather than on harpsichord. The sustain of the organ seemed to make sense of the weight of each note in comparison to the each other note ... The harpsichord lacks much sustain, and seemed to chop the lines into pieces. I had two recordings on the harpsichord, and got to know the music by heart from these, but was never satisfied by the effect of it on the harpsichord for all that. These recordings have long since gone from my library.

About the same time as the beauty of the Art Of Fugue became clear to me with Walcha's recording, I also got the Munchinger recording on Decca, which employs an orchestration of the score for modern orchestral instruments, but very nicely done. I think this also helped me to understand the relativity of the piece with itself and other Bach music, even of any music. But in time I came to enjoy the austerity of the Walcha recording more and more, though I still have the Munchinger performance.

Eventually I also had two recordings from MC Alain. I kept the earlier one, which has something very special about it. Quite impossible to pin down why the first MC Alain recording should appeal to me so much - as much as the Walcha performance - but it is strange for me that though I listen more often to the Walcha set, I sometimes know perfectly that today I shall listen agreeably to the Alain set!

So both are indispensable for me, though in many ways they are quite similar.

It is hard to understand anything so subjective as to why a person is attracted to this music more than that music or this person more than another ...

I accept the mystery without being worried by never expecting to understand it!

ATB from George

Thanks for the explanations George, I very much appreciate! As I mentioned, I am pretty ignorant about music but I think I can understand what you say. "Unease" was perhaps not the right expression in the particular example. And I thought that your being bound to Bach's gravitational field might be a consequence of his huge force of attraction rather than being caused by the repulsion of the others. But I might be wrong, of course. Best, nbpf

As opposed to what? Where else would one's attraction to any music come from, other than the music itself?

interpretation of the music.

That is the case with Bach. A good interpretation and it is divine, a bad interpretation and it sounds like a mathematical formular. 

Well, yes, that's a given. But how often is an intelligent, discerning listener attracted to poorly written music as the result of a good interpretation? And on the other side of the same coin, it's entirely possible for said intelligent, discerning listener to distinguish between a well-written piece and a substandard interpretation of it.

Originally posted by :

The attraction seems to not be about music but rather about creating a stage to unleash a seething, veiled hatred that looks for identifiable targets to put down and step on in a humiliating tone.  As I have said many times before, behind the mask, is it reasonable to relay ones attraction for something or someone with derogatory remarks about other things or made about composers such as Schubert, Beethoven, Schumann, Wagner - anyone really that is not Bach or Haydn?  This is such an odd way to relate your love of music?  The further innuendo (which would be quickly denied) is that these diatribes are actually meant to insult the people that listen to said deranged, nut case composers that "are not Bach."  Then trying to intellectualize or justify ones hatred of everything "not Bach or Haydn" is just more poppycock.  Again, it is opinion parading around as fact when it is not.  None of this qualifies as attraction to music, IMHO.

Well said.

Well the posts of Morton and Florestan are completely wrong in ascribing reasons for my tastes, but then they do not know me personally so can be easily understood in their wrongful assumptions ...

Wrongful assumptions are actually the stock of very much of the Forum ...

ATB from George

I don't agree with this.

Absolutes are actually the stock of very much of the Forum.  And the cause of most contention.  And what leads to most "wrongful assumptions".

IMO, absolutes only exist in the mind of the presenter.  Unfortunately, absolutes are most often used in an attempt to self-inflate the status or knowledge of the presenter as they wish to be perceived within the community.  Absolutes are dripping from the Forum today, as everyday.  In every room, corner, theatre, and cell.

And that is meant in the most non-absolute way possible.  It is all just opinions and preferences.  None of us know "the truth" (for anyone else).

And this is still a very fine place to hang out and learn.

regards

Jeff A

Jeff, I see yoru logic. It is probably true that quite a few wrong assumptions do stem from people posting opinion in terms of fact. 

But there are many instances were nothing but opinion and taste are still responded to with wrongful assumption, even wilfully wrong on occasion. People just being awkward. This has always been the case here, but perhaps as I age, I have become less able to simply ignore wilful debating devices that scatter the argument rather follow it through.

I think we all do make occasional wrongful assumptions and the best way to deal with it being pointed out is say that I was in error to assume this or that. Sometimes the little word, "sorry," solved the bind without any problem. For such a small word it has remarkable cooling power! 

ATB from George

And durIng his period by others as well

His sons, shostakovich, prokofiev, Mahler, Bruckner ....

 In fact, I personally hold your sane views and opinions on music in very high regard and respect you immensely for them.  When you focus on the music, then your views are always respectful, intelligent, interesting, informative, appreciated and always second to none.  I am sure I am not alone on this.

I agree.

And of course Bach was an admirer of Vivaldi.  All composers stand on the foundations laid by others no matter how great you consider a composer, some of that greatness comes from the insperation derived from others.

Bach not only admired Vivaldi, but several other contemporaries. Enough to transcribe their music for his own performance and personal study, such as this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgYZJSzUrrg

The Adagio for Marcello's Oboe concerto in D Minor. Here further adjusted by giving the Oboe line to the Violin, an keeping Bach's transcription of the orchestra [strings and harpsichord continuo] for the keyboard alone. The original is beautiful and may be listened to on my current thread, a beautiful Baroque concerto still on the top page of the Music Room. Bach's transcription for solo keyboard is also sublime, and of course is of the three movements complete. 

There is no youtube of that one yet, but I finally have a recording in the Brilliant Classics Complete Bach Edition. Sublime music that Bach was clearly very fond of.

ATB from George

PS: [Edit] The Bach keyboard transcription for harpsichord [if here played on a piano, which further transforms the original in unexpected ways allowing for dynamic that are far from the original terraced effect that the harpsichord preserves from the original], but also giving a hint that Bach not only transcribes but complete recomposes as he goes! Listen to the variegated harmonic treatment that is far richer than Marcello's original and sublime simplicity!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJOBc2pj6Cg

George,

Just to support your view on Bach: after listening to many classic composers for years, J.S. Bach has become my dearest friend in music. I don't know what it is, and it's difficult to express myself as non-native English speaker, but the attractiveness is for me in:  (1) melodic & harmonic complexity (2) pace & rhythm (3) deep religious and spiritual elevation.

There are some particular pieces which touch me deeply. It must be the almost perfect and beautiful interpretation of these musicians. They all seem to be so inspired by this gorgeous, timeless music.

Some of my favourites:

BWV643 Orgelbüchlein "Alle Menschen Müssen Sterben" played by Angela Hewitt in 2001 - a very simple melody, yet so sweet, tender and very aware of man's mortality

"Blute nur, du liebes Herz" soprano aria from the Matthäus Passion by Koopman & Nederlandse Bachvereniging & Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra (1992)

Tenor Aria "Geduld!" from the 1958 Matthäus Passion by Karl Richter & Münchener Bach Chor & Orchester. Fantastic tenor and a joyful organ (listen at 2:50!)

"Er leugnete aber und sprach" in the Johannes Passion by Sigiswald Kuijken & La Petite Bande in 1987 - The second half of this recitativ is incredibly beautifully sung by Christoph Prégardien.

BWV846 #1 Prelude from Das Wohltemperierte Klavier by Angela Hewitt (2008). Again a very simple melody, but lovely played with a very soft, harp-like piano sound.

BWV999 "Prelude" and BWV1006 "Prelude" played on classic guitar by Eduardo Fernández in 1987 - simple, broken chords yet so effective. Marvellous pace.

The Goldberg Variations are such a marvellous, consistent set of compositional highlights. Three interpretations give me so much joy:

• My favourite is Glenn Gould in 1981, with some brilliant pieces: the opening Aria, Variation 5 (so quick!), Var.10 with very clear 4 voices, Variation 14 (it swings, it's brilliant!) The heartbreaking and moving 15th and 25th variations, the sparkling Var.28 and the lovely final Aria. See  how deeply Glenn is digging into this exceptional music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clDtiewclmg  Surely he has been touched by the genius of Bach!
• Murray Perahia in 2000 has a different, more romantic style yet perfect control: Varation 1 with lovely ornaments, Var.5 is crystal clear without muddled notes. Var.7 and Var.28 are very special as well
• Cédric Persia in 2004: the same happy Var.1 full with swinging ornaments, Var.13 is lovely played, Var.26 unveils lower melodies not heard before. Var.28 great play.

Allegro from BWV1052 by András Schiff & the Chamber Orchestra of Europe in 1989. Great pace, swings fantastic, perfect timing and such cheerful ornaments at 1:28 5:14 5:20. A piece full of joy and energy.

"Allemande" from BWV825 Partita No.1 played by Glenn Gould around 1960. Very clear anduperb left hand, a machine gun pace and a gorgeous melody in the second half. The "Gigue" is of the same calibre. Also Francesco Tristano plays this first Partita brilliantly on his 2011 album "bachCage".

The Toccata of Partita No.6 (BWV830), another masterpiece. Two different, but both very moving interpretations are those from Glenn and Murray Perahia.

The "Adagio" from BWV1042 Violinkonzerte by Julia Fischer & Ac.St.Martin-in-the-Fields in 2008. Julia plays so beautiful here!

Allegro (III) from BWV1051 the 6th Brandenburg Concertos - by Chamber Orchestra of Europe in 1990. The two competing violins make this piece rock!

Contrapunctus VIII from BWV1080 Die Kunst der Fuge by Angela Hewitt in 2013. It goes on and on, until Johann & Angela have sent you to higher musical spheres....

BWV22 "Sanctify Us by Thy Goodness" in the arrangement of Cohen. Sounds so simple and natural, but try to whistle it by heart!

The "Adagio" from BWV971 Italienisches Konzert, for example played by Györg Sebök. Another simple, yet so moving piece of music.

BWV853 Prelude in Es Minor, arranged and played by Leopold Stokowski & Czech Philharmonic Orchestra. This piece reminds me of the timeless beauty of nature....

As we say in Holland:  "Geen dag zonder Bach"  -  "Not a day without Bach"