Tidal into Uniti - Is Sonos connect better than iphone into USB?

There are rumors that Sonos are working on high res audio distribution but whether that can be accommodated by the existing platform is an unknown at the moment. I hope it is as i'd love to integrate a Sonos source fully into my main system so i'm watching this thread with interest regarding the W4S mods.  

Not in my own system. I heard it at a trade show and was quite impressed but it was hookup up to a DirectStream DAC which is one of the finest DACs I have ever heard.

The next thing I'm planning to home demo is the two box NAD M12/M22 setup. The M12 is a pre amp with an asynchronous USB and optional local and Internet streaming using an internal BlueSound board. The board can be upgraded to take advantage of future streaming innovation. No UPnP server required:-) The M22 is a 250W power amp. It's comes to within 200 quid of a NAC-N 272 / NAP 250 When you add the Bluesound streaming card.

I really like the look of the Aries, perhaps to replace my uq2 as a streamer into my Hugo. Need to try and find somewhere I can have a listen. 

It should be with me in week or so....will post some findings when installed.

this will be my first Sonos experience....the Spotify connect thro the NDX whet my appetite for more...the Sonos looks to a good/better streaming solution at this point in time to enjoy more options...

have a good weekend

Hopeful to demo a local friends w4s Connect then make a decision but my Naim dealer says go for it. I doubt Naim or any major hi end streamer manufacturer will ever integrate as many services or the same way as SONOS and also doubt lossless streaming will be the end all regarding sound quality compared to local NAS/PC/Mac streaming. Could be wrong but in the meantime a modded Connect to feed my NDX the lowest jitter signal possible is a viable option.

It seems my question prompted quite a debate!

FWIW, my thoughts following my tests are:

1: Tidal iOS app -> Airplay -> Apple TV -> Toslink -> Uniti2

It works nicely and whatever app or music I have on the iOS platform I can stream to the Naim but the sound feels a little flat. Its all there, but something is missing. (sorry for the imprecise description, I hope you know what I mean! ). Maybe Airport Express is better, but I would be surprised if the electronics were significantly different that the ATV.

2: Sonos Connect -> Toslink -> Uniti2

Again, works nicely, but I can't use the native Tidal app to control the music. I am fond of the Tidal app because you get all the nice editorial stuff. Not a massive problem though. Sound is, IMO, better than the Airplay/Apple TV solution. Its more open, the mid is clearer to my ear, but it still lacks sparkle.

3: iPhone -> USB -> Uniti2

This is a faf to use. I have to select USB on the Naim and then start playing something from my music library on my phone then start the tidal app which hijacks the stream. And, I have to have a ugly wire hanging out the front of the unit and I cant stray more than 2 feet from the Uniti if I want to browse music while I listen. But, IMO, this is by far the best sound. Its engaging, the sound-stage is wide with great detail and I love it. Its just a pain to use. On the plus side it is the cheapest as all I need is a long USB/lighting cable.

Reading the comments above, and trying to fit them with my observations, the only conclusion I can draw is that the TOSlink bitstream connection is the issue that limits performance for whatever reason. Move from bit stream to something packet based, like USB, and I get the same level as I get from streams from my upnp media server, which is also packet based. I am working on the basis that packet based data is effectively lossless as there are error detection and recovery protocols in place like Ethernet and tcp checksums and usb crc checks.

So I have got myself thinking, how can I run Tidal on a laptop or iOS device and send the audio to the Uniti without using toslink connections. Airplay would obviously be ideal, but we don't have that. The DNLA renderer is another possibility which I tested Kinsky App and it works fine for media stored on a device somewhere, but not for a stream, like tidal. My search will continue on this as I believe that this is the optimal solution. Re-clocking etc feels like patching what is essentially a flawed communication channel plus I don't want to spend money if it can be avoided :-)

Hi - Toslink usually uses SPDIF. SPDIF is a single direction frame based protocol. Each fame has a checksum - if there is an error usually the frame would be dropped - you would hear a very brief gap in the audio in one channel. This would be apparent if there were errors - even if the check sum was ignored or somehow not being enabled, errors in the SPDIF frame would sound typically awful unless very fortunate with probably loud static  type clicks - again obvious if happening.  

Simon

Hello Lance,

I send Tidal from my Macbook Air to my SuperUniti via an asynchronous USB to SPDIF convertor made by Musical Fidelity. Its called a V-Link. From there I have an RCA to BNC cable. I emailed Naim beforehand to confirm that a more stable digital source (provided by the V-Link) was still desirable despite the buffering and de-jittering aspect of the DAC in the SuperUniti.

Hope this helps,

Jack

I am rethinking my conclusions here, not what I hear, just my explanations of why I hear what I hear. I am also worried I am overthinking this!

Bit errors here and there probably would not affect the overall listening experience. There would be nasty bits here and there sure, but if it affects only a single 16bit sample now and then I doubt you'd hear it. If there is error detection then there I expect there would be very small silence.

Regarding Air, I could be wrong, but I understood that Airplay sends 44.1/16bit audio which is compressed (lossless) and encrypted so it should be as good as anything else. The fact that it is over Wifi is irrelevant. What I cant see (from a quick look at the Internet) is whether it is TCP or UDP. If the former, it should be as good as anything with all data delivered in order and the change of a bit error being fairly remote. After all, tidal is receiving its own stream from the Internet using the same protocols and physical medium as the audio stream is using en-route to an Airplay receiver.

I think what I am struggling with is the clock jitter issue of the SPDIF connection. If the receiver, in this case the Naim, cannot sync its clock with the sender due to jitter in the sender's clock, how does it get data at all? Surely it would completely misread the stream and, now I know it is frame based, we would get nothing. I just don't get the re-clocking either. Surely you have to be able to read the initial stream to re-clock it so if the Sonos streams a poor signal, we're stuck.

I still have more homework to do on this, but its an interesting subject and thanks all for you thoughts so far!

Hi

I had been running a SONOS connect solution into a Meridian Director DAC till i upgraded to a NDS. The issue with SONOS is that it cannot play hi-def files, e.g. 192khz flac files. Neither can Airport Express (been down that route). The main advantage with SONOS was the very easy to use interface, in terms of sound I found it a little forward but the Meridian DAC helped with that.

Thanks

I have been running a W4S modified Sonos Connect into my Ndac for over two years and and can compare it to the same music played thru HDX and then into Ndac or NDX into ndac. I also have 9 other Sonos Connect/Zp players so know what the standard Sonos player sounds like. The W4S modified Sonos connect reclocks to 24/96 (the ndac recognises this and indicates this by the higher rate green LED). To gte the best quality, you have to connect using Coax - I use Chord Coax leads.

Soundwise, I find the W4S Sonos Connect to be very close to the quality of the other NDX sources with the same music. Yes the NDX is better but the difference is not huge. Overall very pleased with it.

I have not yet tried Tidal on the Sonos Connect - might have to give it a go.

Although the source file is still 16/44.1. Sounds like a good mod though to get the best out of a Connect.

I was considering the W4S 'Remedy Reclocker' but on reflection, as I use an NDX/Hugo as the 'source', I'm guessing the NDX performs the same function.

Good to hear your conclusion. I find Sonos Connect streaming Qobuz FLAC to be indiscernible from native NAS feed. Differences seem more down to mastering than playback.

G

Hi Graeme -

I ordered a Remedy from Amazon yesterday, and should receive it by middle of next week.

Had been considering it for a while, but finally decided to buy after an hour or so of comparing local NAS-based UPnP versus Deezer Elite/Sonos Connect. The Sonos is connected to my NDS using a Wireworld Toslink cable.

Used only recent CD releases so as not to be tripped up by differences in remastering. After a while, I decided that Deezer/Sonos was "hardening" the sound. It was easiest to hear on female vocals. There seemed to be something not quite right in tone and timbre - a bit of annoying brightness. Called in Mrs. Hook for a quick blind test, and she quickly confirmed her preference for local UPnP as "more natural" sounding.

Also, I believe Simon-in-Suffolk reported improvements by using a stand-alone reclocker between his Connect and NDX.

Easy enough to return the Remedy if it doesn't make a difference, so worth a $399 USD punt IMO. Will connect using optical from the Sonos to the Remedy, and then BNC out to my NDS.

ATB.

Hook

It would be great if Sonos decided to launch an audiophile Connect, perhaps in tandem with the Tidal MQA streaming service. In reality they are much more likely to update existing products like the ageing Play 5, and launch the rumoured battery driven speaker.

The only reason it might be a possibility is that one of the main technical reasons Sonos have avoided hi-res support is that it wasn't confident it could be reliably delivered over a wifi connection. MQA claims to be able to deliver hi-res using the same bandwidth as CD quality. Together with wifi improvements, they might reassess. Most of thier home audio competitors offer hi-res support. I think the chances are slim < 5%, but it would be a nice thought.

Thanks - I'll be interested in your findings Hook.

The 'Remedy Reclocker' is less readily available here in the UK so getting one 'on trial' would not be so straightforward.

G

Naim asynchronous DAC technology uses a RAM buffer for incoming audio data.  The clock derived from the SPDIF signal clocks data into the buffer, and data is clocked out by the DAC's own ultra-low jitter master clock.  This means that input jitter is effectively eliminated.