We want TIDAL!

@Roger Huston I have some sympathy with your frustration. In a previous thread where Naim's reluctance to be more forth coming about it's lossless internet streaming plans was raised. Linn had confirmed in it's forum it's plans for Qobuz. 

Linn is clearly quite happy to not only mention a potential partner, but also describe the type of relationship it would like.

With a number of Naim's competitors either having launched support for CD quality streaming or announced it's future availability, it's clear to me that Naim is not in a position to do the same, otherwise it would have done so.

There is no reason I can see why Naim, would be treated any differently from for example Linn, Meridian, and the increasingly numerous new hifi manufacturers in China, Taiwan and S. Korea. I'm struggling to understand why the commercial constraint of silence applies to Naim and not them.

I'm of the opinion it's not commercial issues that are holding things up. Streaming services are doing deals with companies like Naim; with a few decades of history, to start ups with just a few months, and in the case of Simple Audio has already ceased trading. That's the reason these companies have simple standards based API's, because they want to be on every platform as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I sympathise and recognise a lot of what Roger says.. However some NDAs are extremely restrictive.. But in my line of work (also IT)  sometimes one can negotiate the terms of the NDA if it appears too limiting or too restrictive  .. Especially if one party is not overly dominant over the other..

But the key thing, we are talking about here is web streaming using public web services.. These are designed to be open and encourage interoperability between service providers without expensive developments or involved partner developments... and indeed may people do this in open source or public/free software as well as of course commercial software..

So it does point to Roger's #2 point.. Perhaps there is some sort of partnership.. But why does it need a partnership for web service integration? Unless there is some sort of bespoke unique development or innovation? Is this required because of limitations in the Naim architecture?.. The lack of information  here encourages me to speculate this given the relative ease others are integrating and offering beta connections, albeit some are 'non officially sanctioned' integrations to streaming services, but are completely legal. Just like specific vendor web browsers accessig websites.

I do feel having NDAs for every single service one is going to integrate to seems non sensical and unsustainable.. Especially if they are connected via open standards using  public web services.. Ie Qobuz, Tidal, etc

Finally at a recent hifi event sales/marketing representatives from Qobuz for example discussed they expected a Naim integration to launched shortly.. were they breaking the terms of a NDA? and why is it falling to our beloved Phil Harris of Tech Support fame justifying Naim's NDA approaches? It just does not all stack up to me..

Simon

Yes, you are right. Phil is great with tech support, but this is a corporate decision thing.  My dealings with Brits over the years - which includes family - is that its part national pride that they don't give things away.  "Quite frankly, its none of our business so keep calm and move along."

Exactly, which is why I am puzzled.It doesn't make any sense that a large company would hire a vendor to "code" its product and handicap themselves to the terms. Even in such a case, Naim could probably get "approval" from the other party to release a generic, non-committal statement.

"Yes, it is our intention to release support for Tidal as well as several other streaming companies. However, while work is underway and we look to release in the coming months (in 2015, in 1H2016, in my lifetime), we won't release the product until it meets with our best of breed standards."

Yes, we will support it, just not sure when. 

Sure, it's like  the weather in Ireland, it gives us something to talk about, how boring would the forum be without all these threads. 

SJB  enjoying Shelby Lynne through Tidal via SBT and ickstream. 

Good Point.

I also understand the complexities of the problem from a technical standpoint.  Naim probably does not want to write custom code for their boxes for every Tom, Dick and Harry service out there.  What they should be doing is going with a middle-ware aggregator service where Naim writes to one set of API's and the service integrates into 3rd Party sources. There are huge technical hurdles and would be a huge competitive advantage and could be another reason for the NDA. 

Still from a pure marketing standpoint - what does it hurt to tell people you are working on it? You give nothing away and don't look like you are the old-farts being left behind by new world audio.

Hmmm - 3rd Party API - does anything think Naim is partnering with ickstream?  That would make sense since they are still in beta and I could see how they could clam-up Naim.

PC-DOS?  Don't give me that IBM knock off!

Yes, revenue recognition is a grey area and it comes down to the risk profile of the organization. 

The 105K company I work for acquired the company I previously worked for (who acquired the company I originally started with...) and they twice got caught with their pants down by the SEC for stuffing the channel (this is all public knowledge BTW).  So the tolerance of risk was VERY low.

Also consider that in the grand scheme of things, Naim isn't a large company and a long, drawn out lawsuit could prove potentially disastrous to them, so I would expect their risk profile to be low too.

Were they now? That's interesting ... If you don't mind me asking, which show and when?

There's nothing to 'stack up' Simon ... Because we constantly have things on the go and in development and the terms of any contracts that we have in place with different vendors, developers etc. all vary and it would be a nightmare to keep everyone here abreast of the do's and don'ts of each then our own policy (that we have to agree to as part of our employment contract with Naim) is *VERY* simple and I've stated it before on here which is...

Until such time as an official announcement is made by by our PR and Marketing guys in a communication on our website or via other means then any discussion on that is off the table.

It may seem draconian and I know that some people here will let stuff slip out in conversation at shows or whatever (in which case, if they do and it comes round to bite us then it's very clear as to what should and shouldn't have been said) but it is the most straightforward way to make sure that we don't unwittingly drop ourselves in hot water with anyone that we are working with - it has happened in the not too distant past and was pretty uncomfortable for the persons involved here at the time.

Phil

Not draconian at all Phil to my way of thinking.  Many companies have rules stating that corporate communication comes from the PR team although social media (Twitter etc) is blurring the edges.

Now, about that newfangled widget you're working on...

Okay, now that I've played a few albums in HIFI quality on Tidal, time for a comparison.

I've now played several albums (e.g. Keb Mo - Keb Mo, Gretchen Peters Trio - Live) from Tidal and then compared these with the versions on the NAS drive.

The NAS drive versions were ripped using an Apple Superdive via my mac mini on to a Synology DS212+ NAS drive.  The ripping software was XLD, using AIFF Codec.  

Replay from the NAS drive is via the mac mini using itunes & the bit perfect app, so nothing exotic.

The Tidal stream is much better than the usual MP3 music streams but its not even close to the rips from the NAS drive.

In summary, Tidal's HIFI quality sounds like a half way house between the lossy MP3/AAC etc. streaming services and a proper DIY, lossless, CD rip.

How does this compare with your experiences?

Best regards

A curious FT

Starting with the most important thing - music - a big +1 for @Sloop on Shelby Lynn. She's not well know outside of country music circles, but she has an amazing voice.

On the rest of it . . . I do work in marketing at a pretty senior level, also lecture in it at a business school and worked for a technology company until 2011 which now has 128k employees (oh yes) although it was smaller at the time. Pesky acquisitions. Not sure why the size is relevant, but if we're playing 'mine is bigger than yours' . . . 

Anyway, back to the point. Suggesting that an NDA should allow Naim to disclose things ahead of a final contract is patently absurd. NDA stands for Non-Disclosure Agreement. There's a clue in the name. The primary purpose of an NDA is to PREVENT EITHER SIDE DISCLOSING STUFF. Otherwise it would be called a DA.

As a marketer, the reason for not disclosing is that market entry is a critical point in the lifecycle. You want the moment of launch to be fully under your control, so you can get media, dealers, communications, customer support and everyone all lined up to make a big splash. If I was introducing a new consumer service and it got confirmed to the forum ahead of time - let alone while still in negotiation - I would be hopping mad. It doesn't matter if you're not the first mover, or even tenth, you want your announcement and your point of differentiation to be the best, and you certainly don't achieve that by sneaking out information in installments.

Hi Guys,

I guess this question is ultimately directed to Phil. There is a lot of talk about Lossless streaming etc, without getting drawn on specifics as per issues in this thread, when it is implemented will it also apply to the Mu-so? The only reason I ask is that Spotify seems to be very much at the heart of the Mu-so with its own Icon on the unit etc and unsure how other streaming services could be implemented. Any thoughts? as a newly released product it would be a little disappointing if it was already outdated. 

Don't get me wrong I am very happy with the Mu-so and it has definitely got me thinking about a future upgrade just not sure if it should be sooner rather than later?

Hi,

I understand what you are asking and why you are asking it but it's also a question that I cannot answer for you because we haven't announced anything about any other streaming services on *ANY* platform at this time and so I can't discuss anything to do with possible methods of implementation / support on the mu-so.

Best

Phil

Phil - it was written on this forum by one or two members that they were told this in discussion with the Qobuz team at the  Bristol show.

Phil, don't get me wrong you can be as draconian as you want in your organization - its your party. After all we are only a tiny subset of your customers. In my world I am not sure I could  get away with as being as draconian and quiet on product developments as you guys are - I am always under pressure to share roadmap - and I expect the same from  my suppliers - the last thing my customers and I want are surprises or uncertainty.

Yes typically exact capabilities, commercials and launch commit dates are usually withheld until  certain development millstones are met - hence I would usually expect a landscape of awareness, ready for sale and ready for service as key stages of a launch.. but I work for an organization where we have significant market presence in IT services - I don't work for a small consumer electronics manufacturing company and I realize things probably are very different - but it still doesn't stop if from stacking up for me  .

That'd be a Mutual NDA - the (somewhat over-simplified) idea is that a one-sided NDA allows the disclosing party to change the scope and timing of the disclosure at their discretion, whereas a Mutual NDA requires both parties to agree on matters of disclosure.

As a manufacturer, for example, if I am working on a proprietary product feature to support a third-party product or service, I may want to keep that information (as well as the degree or manner of said support, which may itself be unique or proprietary) under wraps until I have fulfilled the requirements for implementation - this is where a Mutual NDA comes into focus.

I cannot comment on TIDAL's Mutual NDA (there is no such thing as Fight Club) but I can say that no NDA is required to access the Qobuz or Spotify Connect APIs, from a developer's perspective. Of the three, the REST-based Spotify Connect Web API is by far the most comprehensive IMHO, even though it's not my first choice as regards sound quality, or catalogue coverage....

*chuckle* Ahhh yes ... well ... not a lot we can do there!

Phil

I assume that Spotify is a very big player, compared to Tidal. So as soon as Spotify perceived any significant loss of market share to Tidal et al, they will introduce a lossless option at a competitive price.

I just got Tidal to stream to my UPNP renderer using the BubbleUPNP app (android only.) It rocks.

Should work on a Naim streamer, as Bubble uses UPNP protocol. I use a Sonore Rendu. The app can create a mixed playlist of tracks from Tidal and your NAS, or a variety of cloud and local sources - google music, dropbox, Amazon cloud storage, podcasts, you name it. Really cool. I'm actually kind of shocked it all works so well.

Significant quality improvement from my previous route of Tidal streaming: iOS app > airport express > Toslink > NDAC.

So, in some ways, you really don't need NAIM integration, or even the NAIM app - though there may be an SQ improvement depending how NAIM implements this, but I can't see how it would be any different than Bubble or another app sending the stream to the Naim streamer / renderer.

Kudos to the guys at Bubblesoft.

I also got it working briefly with BubbleUPnP using my ND5, but now no longer seem to be able to select Tidal from the app's list of 'Cloud' services.

Make sure that TIDAL is enabled in Settings > Local Media Server > TIDAL > Enable.

I am not sure BubbleUPnP works with Qobuz .. Some correct me please if I am wromg.. If it does i will have a play with it with my NDX

Simon

Checked and Tidal is already listed and my account set up in the list of Cloud services. Still doesn't appear :-(

You probably must select the 'local media server' as the current library in the app's top side menu. TIDAL is part of the local media server browse tree.