ND5: FLAC and ALAC sound different

Posted by: jmtennapel on 29 March 2015

I mentioned this in another post, but when I take a high resolution file and concert them to ALAC 24 bit/96khz or FLAC 24bit/96Khz, and play them, they sound distinctly different.

 

To rule out the potential influence of the converter, I downloaded the originals from Qobuz in ALAC and FLAC format. Same sounding diffence.

 

The best way to describe it: FLAC files sound a bit flatter in term of depth, a bit dryer, but with more separation of the instruments. ALAC files are a bit warmer, far more depth and soundstage, and as a result a little less clinical in the separation of instruments.

 

I find this puzzling. It is the same file, but just another format. Same player, same DAC. 

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Aleg
Originally Posted by jmtennapel:

I mentioned this in another post, but when I take a high resolution file and concert them to ALAC 24 bit/96khz or FLAC 24bit/96Khz, and play them, they sound distinctly different.

 

To rule out the potential influence of the converter, I downloaded the originals from Qobuz in ALAC and FLAC format. Same sounding diffence.

 

The best way to describe it: FLAC files sound a bit flatter in term of depth, a bit dryer, but with more separation of the instruments. ALAC files are a bit warmer, far more depth and soundstage, and as a result a little less clinical in the separation of instruments.

 

I find this puzzling. It is the same file, but just another format. Same player, same DAC. 

The decoding proces of one format Is different to the decoding proces of the other format.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I am not sure why you find puzzling, many people have reported on here  they can hear sonic differences between lissless file formats on their streamers. This is most likely due to the EM noise caused by the decoder prcessing between the different file formats. If I use the inbuilt DAC on my NDX I can hear differences between WAV, ALAC and FLAC. If I decouple the DAC to an external DAC like a Hugo, the differences all but disappear.

I suspect, but don't know for sure,  that the Naim devices have been optimised for WAV playback in listening tests.

Simon

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by hungryhalibut

WAV sound a lot nicer to me using my SuperUniti. I keep all my music in flac, because it's easier to deal with the metadata, but transcode them to WAV on playback. I was told that Naim streamers have less work to do to if you serve them WAV files rather than flac, hence the better sound.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by jmtennapel

Thanks Simon. I do find it puzzling because it adds just another decision to be made. With my CD player it was simple: you put a silver disc in the player and that's it. Now I have to think what file format to use.

 

So far, I prefer ALAC. I have tried WAV too, and indeed it sounds different from the other formats.

The ND5 has problems playing the ALAC files though.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Is it so different from the CD replay world?  Different  CD finishes arguably sound different, and CD-R often sound different (inferior?) to pressed CDs. At least as HH says above, you can transcode the audio format to suit your streamer... It is harder to do that with CDs 

Simon

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by feeling_zen
I've experienced the same thing. Difference was big enough for me to suspect that the ALAC files sold by Apple have been intentionally tweaked insome way.

I heard from Naim that while the format is fine the data going in to make the file is not the same.

I am not able to substantiate this though. I know what I hear but as for the other it is heresay. There is precedence for this though. In the early days of DVD in the 90s, DTS streams were intentionally remixed for home market to increase the rear level so that people felt DTS offered superior surround sound in demos than Dolby Digital. DTS was superior technically but the streams came from different sources. Dolby may have been lower quality but had the same mixing levels as the original theatre mix.
Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi, where can you buy ALAC files from Apple? As far as I aware Apple are still only providing lossy AAC files.

With respect to ALAC I have many albums I have ripped or downloaded (from Qobuz) in ALAC format. Once I transcode to WAV when streaming, it plays like a transcoded FLAC or WAV file... No issue or sonic degradation at all.. Advantage is that ALACs are more usable within the rather restrictive Apple OS environment.

 

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by feeling_zen
iTunes has has a lossles store. At least it does here in Japan.

You make an interesting point. I have compaired purchased files but not my own rips.
Posted on: 29 March 2015 by bicela
Originally Posted by feeling_zen:
iTunes has has a lossles store. At least it does here in Japan.

 Really? In EU there are "only" rumors since years... Tell us more, please. Which format are allowed to buy additionally to ALAC? AIFF, WAV?

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by bicela
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:

WAV sound a lot nicer to me using my SuperUniti. I keep all my music in flac, because it's easier to deal with the metadata, but transcode them to WAV on playback. I was told that Naim streamers have less work to do to if you serve them WAV files rather than flac, hence the better sound.

Hi HH, I'm close to decide to revert all in WAV... But before, let me kindly ask you: with transcode you can't have gapless, right?

 

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by feeling_zen
I've only seen ALAC and only on select content in hi rez.

When I got my NDX a while back I went through this phase of comparing formats (as you do). I found a reference album where the hirez downloads were not remastered (so I can compare the formats and eliminate improvements from mastering) that I owned and was available in hi res in a couple stores. So ripped the CD as WAV in EAC, again as WAV in Media Player, Downloaded the 24/196 from Sony Mora as FLAC and as 24/196 ALAC in the Apple lossless store.

I found the largest difference was actually between the WAVs at 16/44.1. Apps that support bit perfect ripping are definately worth the trouble. Did not find a huge improvement on hires Flac at all other than a different recording level (was lower than CD for that album). ALAC hires was similar but maybe slightly brighter.

As a result, I decided that purchasing music would happn by searching for hires FLACs on the sites available in Japan (the hires download sites eveyone else uses in Europe and the US are blocked here. We have Sony Mora, Onkyo hires, and JVC masters - which have basically the same library). If the album is not available, just buy the CD and rip it. I didn't feel compelled to bother more with the Apple lossless store since I didn't have much of a iTunes library in the first place.
Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Harry

Some people hear a difference, some don't. Some systems seem to portray a difference, some don't. Audible differences between formats are clear to me, which is why I have stayed with WAV.  Storage space is not expensive and for my needs, I find WAV files are easy to tag.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by feeling_zen

I just want to add that Simon makes a good point. I may be comparing apples and oranges.

 

I was mainly testing different methods of ripping WAVs and then testing improvesments on hires audio. What I did NOT do was take the same album WAV and convert to FLAC and ALAC. My test seemed to make sense at the time but might need to revisit this.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Harry
Originally Posted by feeling_zen:

What I did NOT do was take the same album WAV and convert to FLAC and ALAC.

This is what I based my comments on. I've done all the conversion permutations. Could be that your ultimate findings will be different. Happily it's easy to explore and reach your own conclusions.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by bicela:
I'm close to decide to revert all in WAV... But before, let me kindly ask you: with transcode you can't have gapless, right?

 I have ALAC and FLAC and I do transcode to WAV.. But with my off board Hugo i am not sure there is much a difference, but old habits die hard . I use MinimServer and Asset to transcode and both do gapless perfectly.

Simon

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by bicela
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:
Originally Posted by bicela:
I'm close to decide to revert all in WAV... But before, let me kindly ask you: with transcode you can't have gapless, right?

 I have ALAC and FLAC and I do transcode to WAV.. But with my off board Hugo i am not sure there is much a difference, but old habits die hard . I use MinimServer and Asset to transcode and both do gapless perfectly.

Simon

Thank you Simon, so the gapless is related to my Synology default UPnP, I should try Minim.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by hungryhalibut

I changed to Minim a week or so ago. It's a bit fiddly to set up, but works beautifully. The browsing structure is far better than Synology Media Server, and there are no gapless issues. I'm sure it now sounds better, though it may be self delusion.

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by bicela:
Thank you Simon, so the gapless is related to my Synology default UPnP, I should try Minim.

Ciao bicela - Synology Media Server plays .wav gapless perfectly for me, but I am all .wav & have no need of transcoding..  

The question over Synology gapless problems is with transcoding to .wav

 

I used to have both MinimServer & Synology installed,  & after about 4 or 5 months of trying to love MS,  I prefer Synology & have now un-installed MS.   

Posted on: 29 March 2015 by bicela

Thank you HH and Mike,

 

so, I would summarize, in case I want use wav into Naim:

 

- use Minim with Synology and transcode to wav on the fly,

 

or

 

- use the default media server by Synology but so it needs to have converted all music to wav.

 

Grazie, Maurizio 

Posted on: 30 March 2015 by hungryhalibut

If the files are already in flac, I see no point in converting them to WAV. If you set the server software to transcode, they will sound the same.

 

I found the Synology Media Server quite hard to use, but it's very easy to install. It has problems with gapless if you transcode. Minim is a bit fiddly to install, but works really well, and plays gapless even when set to transcode. 

 

It's worth noting that Minim has a very useful forum. Simon, who writes the software, will help you out if you encounter any problems. One nice thing I found is that you can set it to ignore 'The', which means The Smiths now appear under S rather than T, which is something neither the Synology software, nor Naim software on the UnitiServe, could manage. 

Posted on: 30 March 2015 by DWO-Naim

May be going off original topic slightly but may also assist bicela's decision on which route to follow.

 

I use a Synology NAS (DS214play) with latest version of DSM and Media Server to stream (wired) my music to my UL. All my music is stored as flac. I thought I would try the synology transcode to wav on the fly functionality to see if I could hear a difference between streaming flac or wav. No comment on the sound quality but what I did find was that some of my hires files would not play, those with 24bit/48khz would not transcode on the fly using synology media server/DSM - received a message saying "cant play file", more common formats eg normal cd, 24bit/96khz did - is this a quirk of the Synology Media Server transcode function or have I got a setting wrong on DSM? Can someone confirm that Minim will transcode all hires flac formats.

 

Currently turned transcode on the fly "off" and happily listening to native flac via Synology Media Server. Wife would like to be able to search music via "composer" etc so I may just have to install Minim.....

 

Dave

 

Posted on: 30 March 2015 by Nick Lees

The Synology Media Server will present a Composer/Album view to the Naim app if you've tagged your files with Composer info.

 

Also I've had no issues transcoding a range of files excluding the hapless glitch HH mentions.

Posted on: 30 March 2015 by DWO-Naim

Thanks for the info Gary - and yes I'll now have to update my music as appropriate with "composer" tags.

 

You say you have no issues transcoding a range of files - if possible can you confirm that you can transcode 24bit/48khz. Some of the music that I have obtained from B&W SoS appears to be in that format.

 

Apologies in advance for being off OP topic

 

Dave

 

Posted on: 30 March 2015 by Nick Lees

I should have something like that from the series. I'll check later and get back to you.

Posted on: 30 March 2015 by Nick Lees

Currently listening to the LSO Live Dvorak (Davis) 24/48 transcoded to WAV from the FLAC stored on the Synology via Media Player.

 

Edit: and now a Dub Colossus track, similar spec.