Mixing music and politics

George, what I mean is that my belief is that we are born with this imprint of morality as part of the human race and who we are.  Man did not create himself and therefore one could not say man is responsible for the knowledge or the source of morality.  

Music can be tied to politics by mans own choosing but music was not created for this purpose.  This is just a distortion by man.  As I said, when I listen to or play a Prelude & Fugue by Bach, I simply do not or would never see any connection between music and politics.  (BTW, on the other thread I just lost it temporarily and meant nothing by it other than a bad joke.).  It was a joke as I simply have never thought of the music that interests me in having the capability to promote political agendas.

When I listen or play music, the only outcome I expect from music is to receive pleasure from it or learn from it.   This is certainly the farthest thing I know of from any connection to politics.

Doug,

If you play and adore Bach, then you accept that his music was dedicated to the greater glory of God.

That is a political agenda. Whether you are a Christian or not. You cannot divorce the motivation of any human action from an agenda. The agenda is to affect the state of other humans, and therefore their future actions.

Call that moral or not. But the reality is that all actions do have an aim to shift emotions and opinions toward those of the instigator. If these aims are in line with one's own aims then one is unlikely to condemn them, but that does not alter the aim of the exercise.

ATB from George

You're entitled to your opinions George - just pointing out your warmongering through convenient use of half truths or unproven / wrong assumptions. Which I don't think is fair to Menuhin and, arguably, Furtwängler. You have read Furt's biography, so you're better informed than anybody here that as a human being, he was as flawed as any of us and probably made many wrong decisions, but also many right decisions.

EJ

Dear EJ,

No warmongering here. I am against war unless justified by someone like Hitler. I think no major war has been justified since 1945.

Furtwangler's several complete yearly series of BPO concerts on the Reichrundfunksender [during WW II], as organised by Goebbel's PROMI [and his performances of Wagner at Nuremberg NAZI rallies], does suggest complete public compliance on the part of Furtwangler with the Nazi high command. Whatever he committed to his private diaries about thinking the Nazis as being vulgar little men and thugs does nothing but emphasise his hubris and hypocrisy in reality ... the fact that his Jewish Doctor was brought from a concentration camp to treat him only emphasises his complete understanding of his government's policies !

Or else he could have left on one of his frequent visits to Sweden, and been a brave moral person ...

ATB from George

Remember Zimerman incident at Disney Hall back in 2009?

This is an opposite situation to Lisitsa's. An European artist refusing to perform in certain countries due to his/her political view.

Krystian Zimerman to shun U.S. in protest

I have to applaud the statement from the management after the incident: ( well, she's got more balls than the head of the TSO. )

Deborah Borda, president of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, said that while some patrons were taken aback by Zimerman's comments, she did not believe it would affect attendance or fundraising.

"It was very clear he was speaking for himself," she said. "We obviously can't censor. We believe in freedom of expression. We don't use a hook to drag people off the stage."

However, I wonder if they let Zimerman play *if* he tweeted to air out his anti-US political view before the recital.

One phone call from a major donor might have stopped it.

More recently, I've read that Schiff no longer performs in his own country against Hungarian government.

In December 2013, Schiff told an interviewer from the BBC that he had received anonymous threats through the internet, stating that "If I return to Hungary, they will cut off both of my hands. I don't want to risk physical and mental assault." In addition, wrote the interviewer, "Even without that threat, Schiff says he would find it difficult to play in Hungary. Art and politics cannot be disentangled. The audience matters to performers. 'We are not naive,' he says."^[14]

It just shows that they should all have been born British.

Anyone can play any music in London!

Britain is still more civilised than anywhere else!

ATB from George

Well, no Elvis in Israel either:

http://www.elviscostello.com/n...ble-contemplation/44

I have no problem with any artist who refuses to perform in Israel on moral grounds, that's his/her choice. What I don't understand is since these misguided settlement policies of Israel have been in place for such a long time why bother to schedule a concert there in the first place? Wasn't a moral issue then or is it a last minute pressure by someone to cancel the tour? In any case, Costello decision doesn't come across as being sincere. 

George,

Less hubris will do you good. You are not more (or less) civilized than anyone else.

Haim

I think the LIsitsa decision is a disgrace, and the fact that she was paid in full for not performing almost feels like an admission of guilt on the part of the TSO.

But there is but one narrative on that topic in the Western MSM, and all information must conform.

I do not claim to be [more or less civilised then the next], but then I am not important.

However - in  a democracy - my vote is as valuable as the next.

ATB from George

Nothing personal, George. What I meant is that I don't think that the British people are any better or worse than other people.

Dear Haim,

You are probably right. But Britain is certainly a favourite place for those seeking political asylum, which may say something about the British.

ATB from George

Dear Haim,

Of course such a thread was bound to touch on controversy! I hope that while certainly not avoiding this potential controversy, we managed to avoid personal hurt.

ATB from George

Right on. Especially if you subscribe, as I do, to a definition of "politics" along the lines laid out by the late American champion of social justice, Senator Paul Wellstone:

"Politics is not about power. Politics is not about money. Politics is not about winning for the sake of winning. Politics is about the improvement of people's lives. It's about advancing the cause of peace and justice in our country and in our world. Politics is about doing well for people."

I hope we can all agree that music can have a great deal to do with "advancing the cause of peace and justice in our country and in our world" and "doing well for people."

But I'd still like to know exactly what Ms. Lisitsa tweeted ... can anyone provide a direct link to the specific things that got her booted by the TSO?

On the one hand, I strongly support free speech, even for those whose opinions I don't share. Mostly. I say "mostly" because if Ms. Lisitsa expressed the kinds of truly heinous and anti-human "opinions" that, for instance, Michelle Bachmann or Rush Limbaugh express, then the TSO would be justified in canning her.

Not that Lisitsa seems to be of Bachmann's ilk, though. But I don't know because I can't seem to find what she actually said.

A few samples from Newsweek:

Offensive Tweets

Looks like even the substitute Goodyear backed out in a last minute afraid of being accused of 'censorship supporter'. 

How can the 1812 Overture be disassociated from politics when it was written to celebrate the end of a war?

And, can you really separate Britten's War Requiem from politics?

steve

Thanks, Kuma. Not sure what to make of it all ... African reference definitely in poor taste, racist overtones. I don't know enough about the situation ... she was born in Ukraine but seems to support Russia in this conflict. Again, I don't have enough information, but seems like TSO donors pressured management to can her. But I could be wrong.

So, Fred, what is the difference between you and the TSO? They are banning Lisitsa for her Ukraine views and you are willing to do the same if she shares Rush Limbaugh's philosophy. That is surprising coming out of a musician's mouth.

Personally, when I went to hear you play (twice), I would have enjoyed the music just as much even if you were an honorary member of the Tea Party.

On my view of mixing music and politics I just want to add some clarity on this at least from my point of view.  The question is not whether music can be used for political purposes - because it 'can' be of course.  The question is not whether a composer or a performer or a listener can have views - again, of course everyone has a view or a position on any subject.

On the question of Lisitsa's views I do not really know what her views are and actually I have not even made an effort to find out what they are.  It simply doesn't matter to me.  In the cases like this or perhaps another popular example is with Wilhelm Furtwängler, my interest is specifically focused on the music.  What is it with our society that they seem to need to have a target or see someone suffer for their views or mistakes.  Who does not have a view or has not made a mistake?

My point of contention with the whole circus outcome in ALL situations like this is that you have a group of people who band together to disparage someone (on the basis that they are coming from a high and mighty position) and there goal is to really bring someone else down and make someone else pay dearly for opposing there own views essentially through bullying tactics.

You can see this now even through the example of Lisitsa's replacement at the TSO (Stewart Goodyear).  He backed out now due to the overwhelming viciousness aimed at him now for accepting the gig.

I realize in many cases, these people that have strong views against something or someone may be genuinely moved to act this way but are they justified in spewing there hatred against someone else.  Absolutely not!  It certainly goes back to the old adage of taking the log out of your own eye first before judging the speck in your neighbours eye.

People who participate in this sort of armchair warfare are really just as hateful, discriminatory , racist, etc. than the people they are accusing.  

Have your views but when you go on banning people for their views this has gone too far.

Yes, there are bad people in this world with some very offensive views or that have carried out offensive actions but at the same time how many people have been ruined by false accusations and a mob reaction that bullies people into submission.  If anyone has been falsely accused and gone through this or know of people who have then they will understand the other side

This is really the main reason why I do not support the TSO decision here and others like it.  She was being paid to play the piano and no one should be targeted like this for any reason.  For those who mix music with equal portions of politics then they simply do not have to buy a ticket.

I think this could nave been avoided if the TSO had done a a quick check on the artist concerned. 

No doubt that she could make a good living in russia, but perhaps she is too hot to handle in the West. 

Boycots of artists by the audience is the way to go, rather than armchair and internet campaigning. 

Kirsten Flagstad was supposed to be a Nazi because she gave up her pre-1939 international career to return to Nazi occupied Norway to be with her beloved family and husband, who himself was quite possibly a Norwegian with Nazi leanings. Such people did exist. 

However Flagstad returned to the USA after 1945 to be faced with stik bombs, and demonstrations both inside and outside the venues she was in. She faced these off, and ultimately was vindicated. 

She had refused to perform publicly in Norway for the Nazi occupiers. That is about as brave as she could be without being carted of to Grini [Oslo] Concentration Camp ready for transport to somewhere like Auschwitz. It is very difficult to divorce the arts from politics. Politicians of all stripes seem to want to bring art into politics, and sometimes artists are willing enough to nail their colours to a political mast. 

If an artist wants to make a public statement that will get more notice taken of it because they have fame then there will always be consequences for how they are thought of.

Doug, you mention Furtwangler. He was at the very least a controversial figure in his time and still today. I will mention Bruno Walter, who certainly was not a controversial figure either in his time or since. Walter point blank refused to appear at a post 1945 Edinburgh Festival if Furtwangler was also to be invited. I would call Walter's stand a principled one. One may not agree with his position, but it was honest and reasoned. It is the right of every person to take a stand on such issues, in my opinion. 

ATB from George

George,

In my view whether TSO pre-screened or did as they did, in either case it is pandering to some view and shows their cowardice.  If that is their role as an organization then they are misguided?  But again, in such a politically correct world we live in that it has stifled free speech and smells of big brother and a nanny state this is to be expected.  If you hold the view of those with the biggest mouths or largest numbers etc. you can feel safe.  If you hold a view that is not considered not popular or different you will likely pay the price for it.  Is this a society that values freedom of speech and respect to all?

I understand that this is the way of the world and I might stand nearly alone on this view.  Everyone has become a judge but I personally don't believe it is my role on the earth to act as a judge to the views of others (I may not agree with others views but I won't hunt them down or seek justice to put people in their place.)  Others obviously don't see it this way.  Having a view a is acceptable but hunting others for their views is not acceptable. 

I think about a recent story I have seen where a fisherman had caught a fish that was diseased and sickly and so he bopped it on the head good and threw it back in the water.  Maybe this wasn't exactly the right thing to do but it happened.  Of course, this was caught on video on then posted and the hoards of judges then combine to really abuse this guy.  You have some speaking death threats and the like.  He can't walk done the street without hearing some verbal attack on against him.  Does anyone deserve this for making a mistake?

This is insane and it has gotten so out of control.  It is shameful that people can be so idiotic and senseless.

It reminds me of chickens.  If you raise chickens you will know that the masses seem to single out the weakest one.  One or two bullies start pecking until blood comes.  Once the blood comes then everyone is attracted to this and they all peck until this 'weak' one is finished.  I see people follow this same pattern.  Pretty soon you have a large enough herd punching and kicking at their target.  Most of them probably don't even know why they are doing this but they feel the muscle of the crowd and the dominance. 

We should all just listen to the music or focus on what interests us personally and stop all this nonsense of trying to impose your views on others with vicious and uncalled for attacks and public humiliations on others.

Dear Doug,

For myself, I never seek to impose my undoubtedly strong view on others. If Furtwangler were alive today, I would simply not go to one his concerts. That is not lynch mob rule but simply free choice. 

I disagree entirely with the lynch mob mentality, but in practice it is the method adopted by Fascists and other extremists. Fascism and extremism is very much alive these days. 

But that does not mean that even kindly liberal people should avoid making judgements about acceptable behaviour from those of fame. These famous people can say what they like or do what they like so long as it does not actually involve incitement to crime or is actually illegal, but they must expect that this still legal activity will narrow their appeal to exclude those who do not share their views, and moral ethos.

ATB from George

Aside of protests the public should actively vote with its pocketbook, the same way rich donors affect policies with their money. People who are uncomfortable with Lisitsa's political views can stay home and others who disagree with TSO's decision should cancel their subscriptions to the orchestra.

Fair question, Haim. Well, as Walt wrote: do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself; I am large, I contain multitudes.