Qobuz, Deezer Elite, Tidal and all other HQ streaming support?

We are talking about firmware upgrades here, is that so hard to do? We see other brands/players already supporting these other streaming services so why can't Naim do the same?

I really don't think we are asking that much from Naim. It just software and implementing standard code that is being supplied. Just get some good coders!

Thats interesting tp, i wonder if however using the Kingrex PSU takes the other option a stage further. But then i suppose there are other PSU's available for the Sonos.

Graeme

I think with PS on Remedy wer'e talking miniscule if any difference one way or the other. A web trawl I did before going down this route illustrated a variety of users opinions, with no conclusive view.

G

Think i'm going to try the Aries/Vega combination but also try the Aurender N100 if i can find a dealer locally, however i wonder if this also would not work well with Hugo. Oh well more demoing to come

Graeme

I don't doubt that with a bit of work you can turn the Connect into an excellent source but that involves a lot more work. I suspect the limited commercial options for this (apart from the W4S and a UK company that removes the standard SMPS) are a result of most customers wanting to be able to stream hi-res material beyond the standard Sonos bit rate/depth and look beyond the Connect. Shame.  

According to W4S the Remedy is just a Femto-grade clock that re-clocks the signal it receives, while the internal mod, amongst other things, also addresses the power fed to the clock. Their advise is go with their modified Sonos, if you are going to use a Sonos or have one already. Some of this probably also comes down to convenience, I suppose, rather than big sonic advantages to worry about. Having the mod done within the Sonos simply avoids having to use one more cable and a dedicated power supply for the Remedy. Bottom line, I wouldn't worry too much about any sound differences and get the solution that appeals more. Admittedly the Remedy has the added advantage that it can also be used with an Airport Express or Apple TV, if you wanted to in the future. For example when Apple's new streaming service will have launched and Naim take another three years to offer native integration on their streamer.

I use a Dr. Gert Volk modified Sonos ZP90 and am very happy with that solution. The G-Sonos concentrates on providing a high quality 16/44.1 output, with as low jitter as possible. No upsampling is done, unlike with the W4S approach. Some argue that this results in a more natural sounding musical presentation but I can't verify this from personal experience as I have not listened to other Sonos modifications. All I can say is that I am very happy with the result and find it hard to distinguish between the G-Sonos and my CDX2.2, when both are connected to a Naim DAC.

If I wanted to buy a modified Sonos today or get mine upgraded, I would take a close look at the company (Magna Hifi) Adam mentioned. In fact I spoke to one of the chaps there today, just out of interest. They are taking a similar approach as the Gert Volk chap, i.e. focusing on providing the best possible 16/44.1 bitstream output. They seem to have put a lot of thinking into their modifications, including addressing the internal SMPS of the Sonos. At the current EUR/GBP exchange rate their offering is also financially rather more attractive compared to the W4S Sonos.

For those interested here an overview of their Sonos modifications.

MAGNA ULTIMO Modification: 

• Modification is available for Sonos Connect or Sonos ZP90

• New extreme accurate Ultra Low Jitter Tentlabs Clock module replaces standard Sonos Oscillator.

• The Oscillator module is powered by separate power branch including special (ultra wide band) power regulator for optimized operation and precision of the Tentlabs oscillator

• Standard (poor) SPDIF RCA chassis part is replaced with new gold plated connector.

• Original digital SPDIF signal is internally "re-clocked" and buffered to eliminate any remaining jitter.

• Modification is executed on Coax SPDIF output, the optical output (TOS Link) is being 'disabled' (can be re-enabled as an option, see options).

• Improving the integrated 12V and 3,3V power rails for maximum performance. Using high grade Panasonic FC and Wima MKT capacitors result in low voltage rinkle for improved derived power branches.
• Electromagnetic shielding from the transformer and coil of the switching power supply to prevent interferences in the digital audio-signal.
• Tentlabs clock output level correction to match clock input of the Cirrus DAC chip. 
• LED is replaced by a blue, to identify it as 'Ultimo'.

Plus there are some add on options to choose from, such as BNC out instead of RCA. This option is free, for other options there is a surcharge. 

Graeme, sorry that is not what I meant. The Sonos improves a little going via the NDX into the Hugo. The NDX natively into the Hugo is superior  than the Sonos into the Hugo via NDX.

Simon

Thanks Simon for the clarification, i must have misunderstood what with all the different permutations. although the Sonos seems a good device, especially with the mods, I don't think its for me.

I am not sure this is necessarily true James. Gradually there seem to be more and more Sonos mods coming onto the market. I recently discovered yet another one, the Arcam SonLink. Quite an interesting product within the context of a "low" budget system.

While many are buying into the HiRes proposition, there are also a good number of people to whom CD quality recordings are more than sufficient. I find there are huge differences in quality within the CD format, probably as great as between a good CD recording and an excellent HiRes recording. Or thereabouts. Just take classical music as an example, most is phenomenally well recorded, same goes for a lot of acoustic and vocal music. Pop music, rock or grunge recordings on the other hand are often rather frustrating from a pure sound quality point of view. So I think there is a case to be made for a high quality 16/44.1 streamer that does not cost an arm and a leg. I am one of those people. At the moment I can count the number of my hires recordings on both hands. I will most definitely not re-buy my existing CD collection in hi-res and with CD prices so low the cost for much of the current hires material does not appear very attractive at all. Of course others will pay gladly. However, it will be very interesting to see how this market develops in the coming years, that I agree with.

Best

tp

Agreed TP - most of my listening is to ripped red book so yes i see your point. The Connect mods look interesting as a source for my system. Our Sonos system is used a lot and i do like the interface so extending that to the main system would be rather nice. I'll have a look at the company you mentioned in the W4S thread. 

James

No, I don't think this is just a case of firmware upgrades and would be VERY surprised if Qobuzz weren't asking for a licence fee, that just doesn't stack up.

I notice that the last thread you started on the forum was asking Naim to implement Spotify Connect, now its Qobuzz.  Which kind of illustrates my point.  What will be next?

I stand by my statement that at least some of these players won't make it through the next 12 months and that Naim's cautious approach is the correct one.

Nonsense.

Why would Qobuz charge a license fee?

Quite, and Qobuz has been in business for as long if not longer than Spotify.

But surely that is irrelevant. Web radio (iradio) stations come and go.. It doesn't stop us using web radio and connecting to it via Naim. The Sonos type integration to the streaming service provider is not hugely more involved than web radio integration. Ie they use similar web services. Naim could perhaps consider using a vTuner type meta data front end for the streaming service providers potentially. I really do think the 'Connect' type interface is a strategic error, unless perhaps Naim have been forced down here because of architecture limitations.

I expect to see some convergence of web radio, listen again and streaming service providers over the next few years.

Simon

I have been told, at the Bristol Show, that the problem is the financial weakness of Qubuz. Paul Stephenson has blaimed technical issues and NDAs on this forum and now we we're told Naim is being asked to pay a license fee.

I think Mr Stephenson should speak to all his customer facing staff and agree a consistent and (vaguely) credible story. Then he should call Qobuz and demand they stop breaching the NDA.

Alternatively, he could just implement the flippin' thing.

Keith 

Naim is always an excellent engineering company, but it messes up big time with software in this streaming age, since they introduced Unitiserve and HDX. They were wise enough to pick the Ethernet instead of USB as the primary connection medium all along since day one but have been failing to fully realize their machines' potential with their patchy software and poor UI. I do think the software in our Naim streaming device is too primitive and patchy to allow straightforward integration of the modern-day streaming services.

It could be that the development team have their hands full with DSD and HLS and need to deliver these first, if they don't want to branch their code? 

Keith

I don't know.  Why wouldn't they?  

Either way, it took Naim over a year to offer Spotify Connect and i don't see that kind of time frame roll out changing soon, especially while Qobuzz etc are still such niche and regionalised players.

What percentage of Naim's global customer base could potentially access Qobuzz? Less than 50%? More?

I very much agree. Connect as far as I am concerned is an add-on to an existing integration. Perhaps the strategic error was choosing/designing an architecture that couldn't support what are pretty standard interfaces.

I'm baffled by Naim's communication. Firstly it's all over the place and secondly it's contradicted by a partner. I've held back from saying this before but I also think PS's central argument about taking the time to do it right with the right partner doesn't stack up. The very nature of the music business has been one where artists and labels come and go. That natural volatility is reflected in the streaming business. As far as I'm concerned if you are selling networked audio products being able to quickly implement and remove services is a fact of life and a basic cost of doing business. 

A couple of days ago Sonos announced support for 5 new streaming services taking them to a total of 60! All are available on products that are in some cases are over 10 years old and compared to Naim's products cost peanuts.

In related news Meridian Audio will spin out the original Sooloos team forming a new company Roon Labs. According to Audiostream's Michael Lavorgna:

"It is my understanding that Roon Labs will be offering their app, which will run on any platform, directly to consumers via download, as well as a customized version for hardware manufacturers to incorporate into their own server/streamer products. I cannot wait to use my music in the Roon Labs app and explore like never before."

Source: http://www.audiostream.com/con...s-business-roon-labs

Hi Allen, 

had a bit of a holiday 

Best

tp

Because they want people to buy subscriptions. Charging a hardware manufacturer a fee would only get in the way of that.

My guess would be that somewhere above 70% of Naim customers can access Qobuz.

It seems ludicrous that people are having to buy a Sonos Connect in order to access CD quality streaming services, when they already invested thousands of GBP in a Naim streamer. I would be very upset. There is no two ways about it, either Naim offfer native integration of these services for their streaming products or customers will vote with their wallet and, at worst for the company, move on to another brand for streaming.

Thus far, one of Naim's main selling points has been the claim of superior sound quality and up until recently this aspect may have swayed people towards buying their streaming products. However, people are beginning to realise that equal and in some cases better sound quality can be achieved by using a moderate non Naim streamer coupled with a top notch DAC such as the Hugo, which only costs a fraction of any comparable Naim product or combination of them. Now that is the case streamers that sound worse, cost more and offer only half of the package just don't cut it any longer.

Times are a changing and Naim had better watch out...

From what I can see Qobuz is currently only available in ten European countries so for starters that is all of the Americas, Asia and Oceania excluded.  My guess is that it would be under 50% who could potentially access Qobuzz and an even smaller % of those who would actually want to.  

For eg.  I live in New Zealand (one of the highest naim ownership per capita ratios in the world) and Qobuz implementation means nothing to me as the service isn't available here.  Neither is Tidal, neither is Deezer.  We do have Spotify though.  My guess is there are a lot of other people outside of the ten European countries where Qobuz is available who would be in the same boat and feel the same way.  

Hi King Size

Deezer does appear to be available in Godzone - I can subscribe for NZD 12.99 / mth on the Deezer webpage.

You are missing the point.

The thread is not just about Qobuz.It is also about Deezer and Tidal.

More than 50% I would think.

I don't think I am missing the point.  

Agree thread is not just about Qobuz, in fact I mentioned Tidal and Deezer in my post.  I am trying to point out that none of these HQ services are ubiquitous outside of Europe and simply used Qobuz as an example as the OP specifically referred to his correspondence with them in his post. 

We are both just guessing on the %'s but considering how much of the world's population is outside of Europe (just think of the population of China, which Naim sees as an important new market) I would be surprised if I was wrong.

Anyway I think we'll just have to agree that we on opposite sides of the fence on this one.

Cheers

KS