WTF Is Going On?

Dear John,

I really do see your point and sympathise. I have been lucky to be born with the "classical" gene, and even eighty year old recordings as restored sound better to my ears than many modern non-classical recordings.

It is a very sad thing, but the way recordings are done is for the ipod, and the workplace radio, where ambient noise means that a wide dynamic makes the listening impossible. I have taken in some of my music as we used to have a free-for-all on Fridays where we would bring in our own music, and mine was totally useless in the workplace as for minutes the dynamic would be so low that othing could be heard and then there was a great explosion which would rock the system into distortion.

What is amazing is that non-classical issues have indeed actually gotten worse in the last twenty years and the rot seems to be accelerating.

Best wishes from George

[PS; Currently trying to buy a 1974 three speed vintage Raleigh Sport cycle as I cannot afford the cost of newly built wheels for the Carlton, for our weekend out, but the old Raleigh will keep up if I can nail here].

John, I quite agree but with the exception they also sound crap in the car.

They're good for nothing.

Btw... [sorry to change subject] but someone on Hifi corner is asking about Blok Stax and may need the feedback benefit of your experience

Debs

Hi Dave,

Ah, that's made me dig out and spin up my original '2112' CD which sounds superb. I had the later remastered version. Wanna buy a remaster? Ah, no sorry -  your hearing appears to be in good working order.

A friend has just ordered the original Nick Drake CD issues on the Hannibal label. I guess we'll both be dumping our later remasters when we hear them.

Beware the Hi-Def remaster/download. It all depends which master they were derived from.

John.

I agree the sound is a little disappointing. Blackfield II however is much much better, a nice clean open sound.

Why go down the compressed route and then sell it on limited edition vinyl? It somehow doesn't make sense.

Thanks Gert-Jan,

'Blackfield II' duly ordered. I remember enjoying it at your place.

John.

I know you live in east Norfolk, but STEADY!

Perhaps listening to a few of my 'warbling diva' LPs will help?

I buy, on average, between 3 and 5 CDs a week (mostly, though not exclusively rock/folk/jazz/strange noises) and find the recording quality pretty excellent. Occasionally you get one that's been compressed and EQd to hell and back, but nothing that'd make me write to The Times about it. But then I prefer CD to vinyl any day :-)

Not Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells

Thanks James,

I hope life is treating you well. The thought of a female shrieking in German has rendered the offending CD relatively palatable.

In fairness, I do buy some new CDs which are well recorded. Yello's latest 'Touch' being a good example. I realise of course that there has always been a degree of compression and limiting applied to popular recordings, but it has become excessive on many examples in recent years in my experience for the reasons previously stated.

I think some of us are more attuned to a compressed recording, and choice of loudspeakers in particular, plays a part too.

Hey-ho. Back to the old vinyl - 90% of which sounds excellent.

John.

I second this, only buy music from reliable labels that care about their recording quality I tried to explain this on another forum and got laughed at. There is so much great music out there that its seems a waste to spend on duff recordings, but you'll have to be quick on the ECM front as Lontano buys them up so quick I doubt there's many left.

This is a bit odd. So, if you heard something on the radio that was wonderful, but wasn't on a label you normally bought from you'd pass it by? Or if the recording was a bit duff but the music shone through, you'd ditch it?

If so I'm not surprised you might get the odd raised eyebrow. I've got a bit of a Roger Moore on myself :-)

"I think some of us are more attuned to a compressed recording, and choice of loudspeakers in particular, plays a part too."

or maybe you have a taste for the type of music that is likely to be heavily compressed!

J.N. why don't you e-mail SW via the web site and tell him your concerns? It may be he does the editing etc maybe not the final mix (if they are the right terms) before the disc is pressed. Maybe it is "boosted" then?

It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.

I can't say I've noticed any problems with this particular CD. Is it a case of too many bad mixes, has conditioned my ears ?

My point is that this (or any) type of music NEVER used to be this compressed. I cited a couple of examples of old rock gems which sounded superb by comparison, with vastly better dynamic range.

True I guess.  But I think my point, upon reflection poorly expressed , is that IME other genres such as jazz, early music, classical, chamber, opera, electro-acoustic etc., do not seem to suffer in the same way as the examples you cite.  

I was also surprised to find out Steve Wilson is behind this.  What I've heard of his stuff, including the King Crimson remasters, is excellent.  I actually read one interview, regarding remastering, where he stated if he can't improve something, he leaves it alone.  I was also impressed by the way he discovered  the original drum tracks for ITCOTCK and managed to use those on the latest reissue, rather than the existing reduced sub-mix tracks.  That's dedication I'm sure we'd all like to see more of.

You may also be interested to know I believe SW is now producing/mixing etc. new material by our old pal Stephen Bennett (and Tim Bowness).  Hope I haven't let the cat out of the bag on that one, but maybe worth checking out when it is finally released (long overdue).

I'm with you on reissued vinyl - can't get on with it - although I think your 90% figure for old vinyl sounding excellent is a bit high.  I have memories in the mid to late 70's of returning so many LP's pressed on 'oil crisis' vinyl, and many more records have passed through my hands than I have ever kept by a ratio of about 3-1.  Maybe I'm fussy.

Yes, nice to see Ian after so many years.  He was impressed with NDX/nDac/XPS//555PS but admitted the Fact 8's weren't entirely to his taste, although the Adnams Broadside was!  Nice to know some things don't change. 

Hi Graham,

Just to clarify the Blackfield - Welcome to my DNA recording details...

Production - Steven Wilson/Aviv Gefffen, except Oxygene (Trevor Horn)

Mixed by Steven Wilson (assisted by Steve Orchard @ Air Studio)

Mastering by Jon Astley @ Close to the Edge (Lampshade time for Jon I think )

I spoke with Tim Bowness & Stephen Bennett at the judy dyble - talking with strangers launch event (100 club), 27th august, 2009. Part of the chat was "Where the hell is Henry Fool 2". Stephen had not long returned to Norwich from Sweden and the HF recordings (2 CD's worth) needed extracting from his Hard Disk. He mentioned that the man 'Wilson' would probably mix the material when he was free!

I think Henry Fool as a recording/release schedule is modeled on The Blue Nile production technique

Denis

More like plate tectonics. Come ON Stephen!

More like plate tectonics. Come ON Stephen!

Ha!  I like that!     He did warn me this would happen if I mentioned it here!  But nice to know he has some fans here, I'm sure he'll be pleased.

"..Recording quality continues to go backwards it would seem. Is there any point owning a Hi-Fi system for the vast majority of new recordings, when they are clearly optimised to be enjoyed in the car or or on an iPod?

Utter f***ing madness!

Somebody do something!".......and..."My point is that this (or any) type of music NEVER used to be this compressed. I cited a couple of examples of old rock gems which sounded superb by comparison, with vastly better dynamic range. New vinyl sounds comparatively crap to me too."

Hello John

I have just bought this Blackfield recording on LP and, although I suspect the vinyl is better than the CD, it just ain't what it should be either.

My understanding is the artists get little or no say in the mastering process. And it seems that is where most of the 'damage' is done. So you have artists who labour over recording and lovingly oversee the mixes, only to hear their work scagged over by someone at the end game.Yes WTF is going on indeed?

Anyway, I have cheered myself up recently by purchasing a lovely clean 1st press of Pentangling. Entirely inspired by your very good self spinning said disc at Julian's gaff a couple of months back. And what a great sound from the artists, engineers, and the (unnamed) mastering chappies.

In case you haven't come across this book, you may wish to read 'Perfect Sound Forever' by Greg Milner. It discusses in depth the history of recording processes and catalogues the sins of the compression age. 

I can't pretend it will give you any comfort, but it is interesting. If you fancy a read and can't find a copy, ping me a note (e-mail in profile) and I will lend it to you.

Pentangling best regards

David.

In case you haven't come across this book, you may wish to read 'Perfect Sound Forever' by Greg Milner.

Seconded - an excellent book. Though one of the points he illustartes in the book is that hi fi has never been the ultimate aim of the record industry - even as far back as Edison.  Hi fi, it would appear, is almost a happy accident created by a relative few exceptional talents within the industry.

The benefit of using an old issue of Gramophone is that once rubbed down, you can enjoy the reviews contained within the said magazine.

As an aside, unfortunately the current magazine is not a patch on the older one, say pre mid ‘90’s.  The reviews are weak and lacking in detail, basically the magazine has dumbed itself down.  Whilst one can understand why (eg market pressure, wider appeal) it has left a rather large hole in my reading and better understanding of classical music (I stopped taking the magazine a few years ago).

However it is good to see that the Gramophone back issues are available on line, which make locating reviews and researching very easy. The majority of my purchase’s now are on vinyl anyway and would have been released during Gramophone’s better days (IMHO).  The only down side is that a virtual rub down is never going to be as good as the real thing………..

Sorry for the slight side track but I’m sure many feel the same.

Karl