Does UPnP Media Server Software Affect SQ

I started off using the Synology media server. The problem was that it cannot transcode my FLAC files to WAV and get gapless playback right. So I loaded MinimServer, which is a bit tricky to set up, but can transcode and do gapless properly. Rather curiously, it sounds a lot better. I've no idea how this can be, but it does. Very odd. I don't understand what upnp server software does, and would be very interested to know how/why different server packages can sound better/worse than others. 

Very interesting topic dear friends, but I would keep separate the UPnP software effects (if any) from the effects of transcode to wav (that may have SQ effects at least on Naim equipments, why also I don't understand too)...

I don't believe media server affects SQ, after all they are simply making available the media file for the renderer to pull back unless they are also transcoding. However I have found that different underlying TCP parameters (often baselines by the OS) supporting the media server app appear to subtly affect SQ. For example I found Twonky/NetgearNAS and Asset/HP PC-Win7 sound / more brittle sounding compared to Asset/RPi and MinimServer/RPi.

However when I decoupled my DAC from my streamer by useing a Hugo, these differences largely disappeared, but were more apparent with the inbuilt streamer DAC and when I used a NDAC/555PS fed by my streamer.

My best and most consistent SQ has been from a transcoding media server that is SEPARATE from the NAS.

Simon

Can't hear a difference between Minimserver and Asset with WAV. Can't comment on trans coding, which as already mentioned is probably a separate subject.

I doubt it...

I think the correct answer is that it *SHOULDN'T* do if it's all working correctly but it *CAN* do if it isn't or you don't have it set up correctly...

Phil

Phil disagree on that one as being too simplistic unless you are specifically excluding underlying TCP parameters supporting the media server or of course you also subscribe to the view that FLAC *SHOULDN'T* sound different to WAV on Naim if set up correctly , and *CAN* do if something is not set up right on your system.  (And I am not referring to media server transcoding)

Simon

I posted sometime back on this forum some SQ test my dealer and I undertook with a NDX/555PS NDAC/555PS 552/500 system where three of subjectively heard various differences from different media server / NAS combinations.. and have certainly experienced since on my home system.

Hi Simon,

What I'm saying is that a file played through one UPnP server should sound no different played on a different UPnP server unless the UPnP server is doing some sort of transcoding - of course there are other considerations outside the UPnP server and also things that a typical user would not delve into as they are outside the scope of a typical users involvement.

Of course if you have a UPnP server set up to (say) transcode FLACs to WAV and then play that same FLAC file on a UPnP server that isn't set to (or capable of) transcoding to WAV at playback then of course there will be a difference but then the UPnP servers aren't doing the same job.

When playing a file *NATIVELY* (i.e. not transcoding) then there *SHOULD* be no difference in the sound of the same file when played on the same device when fed by different UPnP servers.

Phil

Hi Phil, indeed, but my point is the underlying TCP parameters ( buffer and Window sizes ) vary between certain media server / OS combinations. You can see these on WireShark.. And they can sound subtly different.. I put this down to the different noise profile caused by the TCP/IP streaming card on the streamer... in a way perhaps not wholly dissimilar to FLAC / WAV decoding SQ differences.

In the measurements I performed the payloads including transcoded payloads were all bit perfect with each other.

I kind of assumed you were aware of this as the Unitiserve does certainly sound better than some media server / NAS combinations I have tried .. Or perhaps it was good fortune 

Simon

Indeed a known cause (i.e. different tcp and/or NIC settings) on SQ, among PC audio tweakers.

But not something that most users will ever even venture into and also not something that is really a function of the UPnP server itself.

Phil

Phil, that I do agree with, but the OP did ask if media server software affects SQ.. and the answer is yes it can.. The ability to tweak and tune it may well be beyond most, but certainly not beyond all... Of course one can acquire a Unitiserve where in my experience optimum SQ with Naim can be pretty much assured.. without tweaking or trial and error.

Simon

Hi Simon,

...but tweaking TCP/IP settings on the server device isn't the same as the UPnP server software itself sounding different.

Phil

Phil, I suspected you were going to reply with that  which is why I tried to chose my words carefully. The media server can sound different rather than it will sound different, as it may depend on the OS environment it runs in.. From a layman point of view surely it's all software and these boundaries are technical subtleties. The media server is useless without an operating system to run in... and the media server app can  make different demands on the supporting OS.

For example in my humble very recent experience Asset on the RPi sounds subtley different and subjectively better than Asset running on my HP Win7 PC into my NDX. But Twonky has sounded least satisfactory on my PC and Netgear NAS..

Simon

But that's then a different platform and most users won't be running across different platforms.

What I'm saying is that if you run Minimserver, Asset, Twonky on the same platform with the same files with *NO* transcoding taking place then they *SHOULD* all sound the same...

I'm trying not to confuse people.

Phil

Phil, should and reality are not the same. Mike was inviting comment no doubt with those with direct experience. If one doesn't have this that then I suspect they will ignore.. Surely saying things shouldn't happen to people who are experiencing them is even more confusing... After all WAV and FLAC SQ differences or chokes on Ethernet leads for most haven't confused for those that can hear a difference. Despite I suspect a fair few, if not the majority, ignoring such tweaks and just leaving to the 'nerds'.... But some of your customers are  'nerds' and enjoy tweaking their Naim setups to squeeze that extra 0.1% of musicality out of them.

Simon ( a fully fledged 'nerd' . )

This summary is what I had in mind when I started this thread  ...........  

..........but its an interesting discussion & going much as suspected it would,  albeit going beyond the understanding & intent of most of us I fear.  The problem I see with the many variables of OS, TCP/IP etc - assuming each of the variables do affect SQ - is that with so many variables & combinations it will not conclude anything  .......  whatever,  an interesting read.    

I see this debate a a direct parallel to good old vinyl playback... For 99% of users it is a case of plonking a record on the platter and dropping the needle into the lead in groove - music plays, happy listener. For the 1%, stylus geometry, azimuth adjustments, tracking force etc., are important tweaks to get the very best performance. Streaming audio is just the same, albeit with a different set of technical skills.

Naim clearly don't want the potential technical tweaks to baffle and put off the 99% who are just looking  to step into streaming audio.

Dave

An approach with which I agree.  There will always be people who want to program a Raspberry Pi (sorry, Simon, not picking on you!), but more who want a one-box it-just-works-and-sounds-good solution.  (Much of this stuff sounds "good;" not until you start doing a vs. b comparisons do you start questioning it, with or without basis.)

But given that this is a hobby for most of us, too, those who purchase the one-box subsequently start to think, "Hey, if that lunk can program a Raspberry Pi then so can I."  This has been visible in the UnitiServe -> nas migration of some of our most loyal forumites. 

Dave, Bart, I agree, and clearly I also see why Phil doesn't want to make things seem more complicated than they need be for basic operation. Perhaps on the forum we need an a geek/expert/nerd flag on a topic, so only those who are comfortable and technically initiated participate on a certain thread, everyone else can safely ignore.

I personally think Mikes's question was a good one and I would hate healthy enthusiastic discussion by those who wish to participate to be stifled for fear of upsetting or confusing novice or non technically interested users... 

Simon

Agreed !!!  ......... so keep discussing !!!  (please)

This weekend I am testing different UPnP software on different NAS

A & B on NAS 1

C & D on NAS 2

Both NAS are loaded with WAV so no transcoding is involved

We can't put C or D on NAS 1,  so its not exactly apples & apples,  but we hope to have some fun & maybe test some grape juice at the same time  . 

Hence my OP to get a feel for all this ahead of the night.  

I have two servers running on my Assetnas and although there are clear improvements in the way they perform and operate from one to the other I really can't hear any difference between the two.