Neat's fall short after upgrade from XS to XS2 and from Dynaudio X12 to Neat Motive SX2

Seems quite a long way apart to me. What are they like closer together? (with or without bungs).

C.

Concrete walls (with plaster/wallpaper) are better in the way they are more rigid (less resonance) but worse they can be a little reflective (echo, reverb).

Bassproblems come from room dimensions and standing waves at 1/4, 1/2 and 1x wavelength of the given frequency.

Your room sounds like a typical dutch livingroom and does not have to be problematic. I have a fairly balanced bass response troughout the whole room with fairly low tuned speakers. Differences are minute across the room. But there is absolutely no booming.

As a rule of thumb, the larger the driver/cabinet, the lower the tuning of the port. this is where the tweaking and tuning comes in. Hence the higher tuning of the Dyns' (50~55ish Hz) where the even lower frequencies (<45hz) are boosted by the room dimensions.

There are several rules for positioning your speakers: The golden ratio (Fibonacci) is the one which makes most sense to me because nature/science/physics , but is usualy unsuitable for domestic use. Have a search on the topic.

Measurements are taken from the front of the speaker (where the sound originates) and in your case at the heart of the speaker where the port exits.

Lastly, All advice given above is very good, but apart from all this be honest with yourself. If your ears and your room like the Dynaudio's better, then those are the speakers for you at this moment.

Good luck with experimenting and keep us informed with the outcome.

p.s.: I have had balace problems with my Nait on the lower levels, which were sorted by the importer with a new volume pot

I've just looked up the specification for the Alps RK27 series dual log potentiometers (Alps 'Blue' volume controls) and it's

+/-2dB from 0dB to -60dB.

+/-3dB from -60dB to -70dB.

Incidentally that's actually quite a tight specification.

So if the channel difference is greater than this, it's a fault and the pot needs replacement. 

Well, if that means that up to a 6db channel difference (+3 on one side, -3 on the other) is tolerated, then thats a very easily hearable difference at low volume. I would say, that anyone who can't hear a 6db difference shouldn't bother too much with hifi.

I personally adjust the volume with my balance knob at low volumes, works fine and gives me a reason to get out the remote.

No, that's a tolerance for the logarithmic dual pot: i.e. it's a maximum channel imbalance of +/-2dB at -60dB; and -60dB is well below normal listening volumes.

Getting more and more inside. Thanks

A new volume pot is ordered and I'll get a notice when it arrives so I'll only miss the amp for week.

Though they also said there always can be a slight difference in channels. The current difference I find unacceptable. With the XS that I bought also second hand the previous owner said that the pot was changed due to the same problem. 

At the moment still listening to the motives and shifting places. After a week or so I'll put the X12's back and try to compare again. Pity I'll soon have to miss the XS2, but happy that I still have the XS 

Finally have the Neats working in my living room and as now prefer the sound over the x12 by quite a bit.

Yesterday took the nait xs2 for repair and so after weeks plugged the xs back in. 

Seems I've missed the xs over the xs2, not sure yet. Can't switch now to really know for sure.

I'm not that good at explaining sound, but the seems xs2 adds more body/warmth and so maybe more bass which brings things out of balance in my setup&room.

With the xs i'm more hooked again and surprised by the details(sonics?) I'm hearing. Remember that the xs2 was a bit better at very low volume(maybe cz 70w over 60w?),xs missing a bit body then, but the xs2 when louder could become too much. With the xs you wan't to go louder and it brings what you're hoping for instead of becoming annoying. All also depends on the recording/production, but in general this is my experience.

My thoughts till so far, very curious now when the xs2 is back.

Plus 1

Hi Bjorn,

Much more qualified posters have already said a lot, but please allow me to share a couple of experiences and observations from positioning my Neats:

- Indeed, your A/B comparison is made a bit tougher by the fact you're not just changing speakers, but going from XS to XS2 as well.

- Still on the topic of A/B's, I think your later approach works better:  set up one pair of speakers, play with positioning, live with them for a week, forget about "critical listening", and take notes about your observations (what surprises you, what you're hearing, etc).  After, I dunno, 3 days or a week, switch to the other pair, repeat the exercise.  I find that "critical A/Bs", or playing a few albums, switching kit, and then replaying the same albums just confuses me.

- I have older, smaller Neat Motive 3s.  I realize you don't want your room to look like a studio, but one suggestion, as a thought exercise and experiment:  pull them away from the wall RADICALLY, even into an impractical position, and see what they do.  Even the bass of my 3's was booming away in a small room until I said fluck it and moved them out by about 50cm, then started slowly moving them backwards, little by little, until I got a sense of balance and music just snapped into place. As I write this, Ella is soaring about 1.75 meters in the air, and I have to run to the kitchen to get beer for the brass band behind her.  Do stop by if you want to say hi to her . All this to say that I've found that modest Neats can disappear and make music soar, with taut and bouncy and rich bass driving the swing of it all.  Room-speaker interaction is everything.

Good luck and happy listening!

Mark

500mm into the room is NOT radical, nor is it a free space positioning (think 1.5-2m from any boundary for that).

If the speaker cabinet is 200mm deep, 500mm from the back of the cabinet to the wall will produce a comb filter with a first null at 123Hz.

To avoid looking like a studio use bass traps hidden behind curtains and furnish the room normally.  Bass traps really are the only way to get good clean deep bass in normal sized rooms

Thanks Huge, noted.

Question back to you, please:  while all rooms vary, do opposite-wall bass traps (i.e. behind the listening position) play any meaningful role in taming boomy bass, say in concert with behind-the-speaker bass traps?

Yes, they work in both positions (I know as I have them in both positions).  The reason for having bass traps is to stop standing waves developing in the room.  These waves travel back and forth, along and across the room, bouncing off all the walls.  The waves also take several cycles to build up, so the traps work just as well no matter which wall they are on - so long as they're in the corners (then they absorb waves in both directions).

The best place for them is in the three way corners of the room, i.e. they work just as well in the four top corners as well as wall / wall / floor corners.  As they work using on the pressure wave, rather than air movement, their orientation is also less much important than people intuitively think.

Thanks Northto. You're very right indeed. I've changed too much at the same time. But good chances don't come by too often. 

I think a combination of A/B testing and longer with one setup before changing is best.

The way that i've got the neats working in my room is 75cm(measured from center) from rear wall(no side walls and with bungs. Also i've placed them without spikes on my carpet(wooden floor with carpet/rough between speakers and listening position. Now very happy with the sound and yes your description about them seems right 

I've got the XS2 back from repair and the imbalance at low volume is fixed. After a week I enjoyed the previous XS a lot. Sinds yesterday started with A/B comparing. I said the XS2 seemed better at low volume but I want to change that opinion. The XS2 at low volume is already quite loud, too loud when you're tired and in a very mellow way want to enjoy music without getting fatigued. Sound stage is bigger with the XS2, but it seems to make my setup too forward. 

Now after a week work and tired, I prefer the XS and I very often listen to music when I want to relax. The XS2 quicker gives body to the sound and is maybe a bit warmer. Slightly more bass and a bit more firm. 

Somehow I really want to prefer the XS2 because it's 5 years younger(might live longer than the XS). Also the XS2 might give me more room with future more demanding speakers.

But at the moment it seems better to sell the XS2 and invest in a better source first. Not sure yet

Hi,

I will say do nothing!

Give yourself time to adjust, take your time. ...Sometimes the adjustments can take an age to sink in...

You have changed the speakers and now the amps, so...............Stop doing the A&B thing.

Also, check and REALLY take your time with the re- connections. (Normally when I change things around, I try to do it in a rush). Then the penny drops.

Hi Bjorn, glad you got the volume pot issue resolved.  I'm with Stephen on this one: I'd pick the amp I feel like listening to the most, stay with that for a while, tweak that system... until my curiosity gets the better of me and I switch the other one in.  Gives you time to know the Neats, IMHO. All the best, Mark

...

 

The biggest thing that leaves me questioning is the bass. Just a bit too often it still seems a bit too much specially with the XS2.

Is it still my room, or does the XS2 have this character? Do better/bigger amps always give more bass? Would it be even more with a Supernait2 or is the bass there less pronounced?

Or can it be that my DAC exaggerates the bass. 

If still the room would max two gik soffit traps fix this or do i need a lot more?

 

The future will tell 

Apologies if you've given this info before, but to help with advice on bass traps please could you let us know:

What are the dimensions of the room

Is it a regular cuboid (or are the recesses / alcoves / projections into the room)

What are the distances from the speakers to the room corners (front and side)

Where is the listening position

We may be able to give some guidance then.

Originally Posted by Bjornvs:

...

 

The biggest thing that leaves me questioning is the bass. Just a bit too often it still seems a bit too much specially with the XS2.

Is it still my room, or does the XS2 have this character? Do better/bigger amps always give more bass? Would it be even more with a Supernait2 or is the bass there less pronounced?

Or can it be that my DAC exaggerates the bass. 

If still the room would max two gik soffit traps fix this or do i need a lot more?

 

The future will tell 

Apologies if you've given this info before, but to help with advice on bass traps please could you let us know:

What are the dimensions of the room

Is it a regular cuboid (or are the recesses / alcoves / projections into the room)

What are the distances from the speakers to the room corners (front and side)

Where is the listening position

 

We may be able to give some guidance then.

Hello Huge,

I tried to draw it approximately, also the measurements are approx. 

The white shapes at the rear and right corner are 4 Gik 244 bass traps. 

Rough between sofa and stereo. Wooden floor and concrete walls.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/101067957@N06/20788663839/

Bjorn,

Unfortunately the image doesn't seem to be publicly visible in your Flickr account.

Should be public, but ok here also a link using dropbox.

Hopefully that works.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/124o...td09lc/Woonkamer.png

OK, that's not an easy room to analyse for resonances.

What I think you'll get (in order of severity):

1   36Hz (resonance)

2   72Hz-82Hz (null)

3   210Hz (null)

4   23Hz (resonance)

5   100Hz (null)

No 4 will only cause problems for a sub and by putting it in the right position will fix that.

In practice, no 5 may not actually cause a problem at all (but it may make no 2 worse).

No 2 might be improved by moving the listening position (moving it back 0.5 - 1m may be better).

I think the easiest thing for you to do is to use a tablet or a laptop and get a spectrum analyser application (there are some OK free ones).  Then play a white noise file and look at the peaks and troughs.  This will give a good idea of what needs work.

If you want a really accurate measurement, you could get a calibrated instrumentation microphone and a copy of REW.

My initial guess is that putting GIK soffit traps in the corners to the right of the speakers and in the corners of the back wall (opposite the speakers) will probably help, but you may still need two more (one to the left of the speakers, one in the 'dining' room area).  Note that without measurements this is still a guess though.

Thanks a lot Huge for your time and info.

I'll need to do some more research about this matter

This null means this frequency(range) might be cancelled out?

For this measurement software I assume that'll need to purchase a good mic first.

On the right of the speakers is mostly glass and it will look weird if I would put traps there

In the dinner is a kitchen so no option there either. 

Options would be a trap approx behind each speaker and in the rear corner(near the entrance)

But these traps will cost me near 1000,- which would also give me the option to try some pmc's and see if these work better in my room. Would prefer the latter to work but will also be a guess.

Research is good!

Yes, nulls are position where sound is cancelled usually only partially, but sometimes almost completely.

You can start using the internal mic on a tablet, it will give you a fair idea if there are serious problems, as there'll be sharp changes in response at lower frequencies (ignore anything above 2kHz).

Using an instrumentation mike (e.g. a minidsp umik-1) is more accurate, but if you have a tablet you may as well try that first, just download a spectrum analyser (e.g. Keuwl spectrum analyser for Android) and use it to listen to a white noise file.

Hmm, that makes it difficult.

What I have used is large packs of cavity wall insulation still in the polythene wrapper.  It's essential to keep it in the wrapper to use it as a bass trap.  This is cheap, and you could use it for experimentation, each bundle is about 1/2 as effective as a GIK Soffit Trap (i.e. it's about as effective as a GIK 244, but at lower frequency).  The problem you have it that to be most effective Bass traps need to be in the corners.  Place along the walls they only damp the resonance running toward them, not the resonance across them.

You may find they work as you suggest as the main resonance and the worst nulls will be standing waves moving through the shorter room dimension.

ok, the end result of this audio journey. 

When trying to sell the Naim XS someone was interested but wanted to demo first at home. I wasn’t that happy with the thought, but then he told me that he wanted to test the XS with his PMC Gb1i and Fb1i and then sell one of these.

I was really interested in the Gb1i to try these in my room with the XS2 and we decided to exchange for a week and then decide what to do.

In that same week I was lucky to try an OEM implementation of the Metrum-Acoustics Musette DAC a collega made. 

First I noticed the Gb1i’s bass worked a lot better in my room than the SX2’s. Also the sound of GB1i was a lot more open and larger than the SX2’s. Instruments were also more realistic and often they gave a more live feeling than the SX2’s. This all tested with the OEM Musette

After I week the other person decided to keep the XS with the Fb1i’s so we could make a deal and I ended up with the Gb1i’s.

A few weeks later I needed to give the OEM version of the Musette DAC back and the Gb1i’s seemed halve as good. Hardly listened to music anymore and really wanted to try the full version of the Musette.

Now for a week I’ve an at home demo with the Musette and yes! Back is what I loved. All these details and soundstage, already at low volume. Biggest difference compared to my arcam irdac is how realistic instruments can sound.

Already sold the Neats and probably will purchase the Musette. I really think that with this total combination I can be happy for a long time and do what’s most important, enjoy music!