Considering an NDS and Naim vs the other guys...

I may as well be the first to say it . . . the non-Naim source that gets the most chatter here is the Chord Hugo dac.  That is not compatible with networked UPnP streaming, unless you bought a ND5XS or NDX and use that as a streamer front-end for the Hugo dac.  But for the price of an NDS and 555PS, you certainly could buy one of those streamer players and the Hugo.

You will see a wide variety of opinions from 'it's an NDS-killer' to 'it's not for me.'  

You will also get opinions that you could skip the UnitiServe and do what it does with a good quality nas from QNAP or Synology, and a computer to rip cd's (which you likely own already).

(Full disclosure:  I own a UnitiServe, and and NDS/555DR.  I thoroughly enjoy my system.  If I did not already own the UnitiServe I could certainly 'get by' with just a nas as a server and computer to rip cd's.  I have never heard the Hugo, so cannot comment on how it sounds.)

Hi Mostly Drummer

Hhhmmm, you are about to make quite a financial commitment to new Naim source boxes there.

That could indeed be precisely the right thing to do.

So long as your system is balanced and well set up.

Otherwise, you end up on the endless upgrade ladder, desperately seeking a well balanced, enjoyable system that just reproduces effortless, natural music - something that is deceptively tricky to achieve.

So, first, make sure that you have a knowledgeable, expert dealer to help you - even if you have to travel for it.  I do and it's worth it.  Many times over.

Now, your proposed source.  Oohh, that's a goody.  

The NDS/555PS is a properly capable music maker.

The Unitiserve may be a lot of money for what it does, but it does rip and reproduce those little bits rather well.  Other options may be cheaper but not necessarily better sounding.

Now, those speakers of yours.  Not the last word in deep, visceral bass are they?  But they do have that rare ability to convey the beauty in music.  Lovely.  Keep 'em.

Which brings me to the amplifier.  Perhaps not the happiest combination.  The trouble with a NAP250 & decent SF standmounts is that they will let you know the limitations of the 202, even if you power it with a Supercap.  

So your idea of replacing it with a 282 makes a great deal of sense, even if you have to use a less expensive power supply on the NDS - an XPS DR perhaps.

Alternatively, by all means go down the mac 'n dac approach if you wish (I have in our second system), but your proposed approach will definitely reproduce music, so long as you have a good dealer to help you and you do something about the pre-amp.

Hope this helps, FT

+1 to FTs advice, especially about the preamp. 

" a bit congested" leads me to think your pre is holding you back. My thought would be to first upgrade the pre and put a dedicated PS on your CDX2- XPS2 or even consider 555PS. The PS could be later used for your streaming indulgence.

I have heard your speakers in front of a 552/500 and they produced some great sounds, although a REL sub was also in the mix if I remember correctly.

Good luck , but my thought would be to get your amps up to the task prior to investing so much in a streaming set. Your thought of 282 is a great one.

ATB,

Mark

This is possibly sweet coming from someone who bought a CD555 in 2011 but I think that the technology in the NDS is too old to warrant this huge outlay at the moment. Although the MUSO can be upgraded over the internet the NDS (in my simple understanding of the matter) has effectively the same "computer architecture" as the original Uniti.

It seems to me like buying a six year old PC for the price of a new one. Admittedly it sounds very good and there have been firmware updates over the years which have advanced it but in the background I fear the computer in it and its architecture is a huge impediment.

My advice?

Perhaps get the Unitiserve, start the ripping process and play the Unitiserve directly into a DAC. Then in a year or two buy the NDS2 and sell on the DAC.

Many will disagree undoubtedly but with my system an NDS is the logical product to buy. I have the funds to buy it. However I stream a Squeezebox Touch in to a Naim DAC and bide my time.

best of luck whatever route you take.

SJB

I owned 202 and still run 282 and 552 in two different rooms.

I believe that despite the "source first" paradigm the 202 will not make a justice to NDS/555.

It's simply not as transparent and fast to match the performance of NDS and 250.2.

If you can't stretch to both NDS and 282 than I would recommend to put NDS aside  and go with NDAC/555 and 282 first and later on upgrade NDAC to NDS.

My second system nDAC/555/282/HC/250.2 is a very balanced setup although it has an aggressive character (which many people adore and the others can not stand). I personal believe it rocks.

As for competitors to NDS then I would say nDAC/555 is just a small step below (it is more aggressive than NDS) for substantially less dosh.

The other example is Linn KDS/1 which is the same transport and fast but more analogue-sounding than NDS/555, while staying one step behind on bass weight to both NDS/555 and nDAC/555. They say a new release KDS/2 has further improved the transparency and substantially improved the bass performance which may bridge the gap to NDS completely while retaining the original advantage of having a more analogue presentation -- although I have yet to hear that.

This decision is about taking the plunge and digitising your present and future music collection, and how best to do that. I did it by buying a Unitiserve and ripping 2000 CDs , boring but painless. I subsequently discovered that the US is a perfect manager of my new environment. I have added a NAS with about 400 HD downloads, with an NDS 2*552DR as the network streamer.

The key turning point was hearing the Beatles 24bit from US to 552 via V1 DAC. That convinced me to go for the NDS, which, with all due respect to SJB, is not a 6 year old PC!!

Indeed not and it does sound impressive. I just think some of its innards are based on quite old computer architecture - but as I said I'm the one who possibly bought the last CD555 Naim sold which probably has 10 year old technology in it!

SJB

Mostly Drummer,

What are you using for equipment support?  "congested" makes me think of a poor rack setup.  If you are not yet using Fraim, you should consider including it in your budget.  

+1 on replacing the 202.

+1 that the NDS is a great player, but perhaps is due for a refresh soon...

Charlie

@SJB - I think that the 'you can't update the NDS over the internet (alone)' is a red herring.  Yes, it was released in 2012.  Yes, there have been firmware updates.  Yes, it's quite simple to update it with a laptop and a USB cable.  Yes, the OP is talking about a significant outlay of funds.  Yes, it sounds wonderful.

(I'm a "yes man" apparently!)

'cept for SSDs the PC hasn't really changed much in the last 6 years...and besides this isn't a PC.

Small, mobile device architecture changes every year though.

I think you are planning to make too many steps at the same time.

First, start ripping a representative sample of your CD collection, say about 30 to 60 CDs. For this you do not need a UnitiServe.

Second, critically look at the outcome of step one: how are you going to organize your data? Which tagging scheme do you want to adopt? Does a UnitiServe help you realizing such scheme? Does it help you organizing the data the way you like?

Third, you ask yourself how you want to get the digital data converted to signals that your preamp will be happy to process: do you want an integrated streamer+dac? An integrated dac+preamp? A pure dac? Why? Do you want to serve your digital data to different rooms? Do you like the way Naim control apps allows you to interact with your music collection? Do you like controlling replay via Apple's i-devices?

I personally consider the UnitiServe a no go and I would not buy an NDS (I have put forward the reasons why I do so in a number of posts on different threads). But UnitiServe and NDS could be a perfect fit for you. It very much depends on what you want to realize and on how you answer questions like the ones mentioned above.

I have 202 and 282 with NAP 200 right now at home and have been able to compare them,

I also have a Chord Hugo, and was saving up for NDS, now saving up for Chord DAVE. 

I would say that 202/200/HCDR and Hugo is a fantastic music making machine, full of PRAT, energy and sheer fun.

282/200 with Hugo takes it to another level, more spacious sound, more 3d effect of soundstage, and more control over the music. It is less constrained for sure.

But here is the catch : more control over the music. the 202 has a different tonal balance and sounds quite amazingly extra energetic when paired with NAP 200 and in fact quite thrilling to my ears with rock music. Maybe the 202/200 makes the music sound thrilling if it may not be to begin with, but aren't we all into naim for this reason? The 282 adds more realism and is more mature musically, but I prefer myself the extra over the top energy of the 202/200. Maybe the 250.2 brings back that relentless energy to the 282.

or it could just be that the treble of the 202 is more sharp, hence sounds more exciting. The 282 is more balanced to my ears. 

hence as you have 250.2 - you will need to upgrade to 282 to get the balance right again.

or you could keep the 202 and downgrade to new NAP 200 DR. According to Frank Abela, the bare 202/200 DR is much better amplifier now. (the older 202/200 always was a thrilling amplifier to me, that's why I paid full price for one)

NDS - if you are prepared to spend that kind of money wait for the Chord DAVE and see how it sounds. Sorry Naim, but Chord has taken the lead in digital sources.

If you look at older posts of Engelbert and Vauxhall 2 on this subject you will see similar thoughts on 202/200 and 282/200. 202/200 works very well together, but once you go 282/200 you may find the need to upgrade to 282/250 as some do here. Same with 202/250, doesn't work so well according to many here, and you will need to upgrade to 282/250

On the other hand Richard Dane himself endorsed 282/200 as a taste of the Naim hi-end sound. Which is certainly is. 

Some great advice, and a lot of it consistent..

i'll chime in and say I think the 202 /250.2 is not often the happiest combination, it can be slightly slow and dull. The CDX2 on its own can be quite sharp.. And could be countering the 202/250.2 slowness... but congestion does ultimately point to lack of resolution somewhere or poor room acoustics.

So I would think upgrading the pre to a 282.. That will work really well with the HiCapDR and 250.2.. In fact I think you will be delighted with the improvement... But that CDX2 might then start to sound sharp.. So either add an XPS2 or think about streaming. 

Undoubtedly the NDS/555PS is very good, and I am sure will only get better as Naim add new features to the firmware.

However as said there other options that don't require such a huge outlay, that will happily sing with your updated preamp.

it might just be in your situation the new 272 is your perfect tonic. You will get an upgraded pre and streamer all in one, and be able to take advantage of new streamer software enhancements from Naim. You can connect your CDX2 either digitally or via analogue into your 272.

if at some point you want to move beyond the 272 then you have the 282 and 252 pre seperates and ultimately the NDS/555PS if you want... But there is an awful lot of music to enjoy before then with hopefully no congestion.

Simon

(My disclosure: I use 252DR/250.2 with a NDX/Hugo streamer - and other analogue sources - feeding ATC SCM speakers)

Edit HH has suggested the same thing 

I think the 272 is the new toy, but digital sources are moving way too fast for me to be tied down with a Naim streamer and a Naim DAC with the preamp in the same box.

So althought the mid range Naim preamps may seem old fashioned, I can easily see myself using them in 20 years time

but the 272?

Try getting that serviced then.

The wifi, bluetooth, ethernet standards may have moved on by then and you can be saddled with outdated technology.

Bluetooth itself may not be the same standard in 5 years time.

Hope Naim will be able to replace your wifi card or ethernet module if it breaks down then.

Separates are always better 

Invest a bit more now and go for the 282, rather than save money now for 272 and pay more later when you have to sell or, or get it updated (back to factory shipping costs, and then update costs)

Agreed lots of good advice and the shifting sands of technology will always present new options, with the 272 being one example.

Personally I went for NDS/555DR with a US as I wanted to RIP all my CDs and I enjoyed the iOS software that allowed me to navigate album art and playback the files.

US serves HD files but doesn't really embrace them as it does its own RIPs and I am also a fan of WAV over FLAC so the US was a good buy for me.

It has perhaps taken a couple of years to mature slightly but today there are other options now, home-brew options with NAS and UPnP software, ripping software via laptops and so forth but I can guarantee that in 2 years time things will have moved on yet again.

Today the Melco/Chord (and new up coming DAVE) is being muted as the next thing, Devialet is here also being served via Melco, (a dedicated NAS for audio only) but to me if an NDS version 2 came out or the original NDS gets an upgrade to that V2.0 NDS that will move things along and put NAIM at or near the very top again.

My decision to buy NDS was a feeling that it was not only a magnificent player but I could see myself still using it in 5-10 years time (with upgrades for software along the way and maybe even hardware who knows) while I felt the other players I tried (such as Devialet) wouldn't. I wonder if I was right in my thinking?

But ultimately it was my own ears and when I hooked up a SN2 to the NDS and the 3D sound staging, I was hooked, and that was my decision then.

I have now tried the SL cables for speakers and IC plus HCDR on the SN2 and the sound went up another notch, more layers and a certain sprinkling of stardust over the whole playback, even more joined up low/mid/top end.

I do ask myself mind was I already selling myself the NAIM product before I actually bought the kit thus somewhat predisposed to buying NAIM above anything else, but I tested thoroughly all options at the time and very happy I went for the NDS, even though it does need quite a bit of support to get the very best out of it (PSU, I went for FRAIM, decent amp and pre if going that route and so on).

Sounds obvious but I would test as much as you can at home, I even went for Ovator S400s after extensive home demo and I love them.

Good luck with your choice so many good options but for me no regrets with NDS here, and Ovator S400s :-)

Per analogmusic's post,

Might we see the day come when internal DACs are upgradeable? Or are the chips and related individual optimization too expensive? Has recent DAC development moved faster than the interval of a of a servicing?

 Mostly drummer.

 Your comment of at least being interested in what else is out there ,is important I think.

Seems to be quite a few new products out there' that combines disc ripping,storage with dac/streaming and pre amp function in one box.  Examples like the Burmester Music Centre 111 and the Request Audio The Beast music server and some others that are lined up to be released in the near future !

Could be interesting running with a Naim Nap.

As I always would say sound signature is important, so first determine if you are hooked to Naim or are also digging other options.

regardless of your source decisions, I think you will need to upgrade your pre-amp to get more out of your source then you get today. Then the source itself. The digital market is moving fast and we see constantly that what today is hip is out tomorrow. So it's also a question of strategic buying. So options I see for you spending on your budget.

buy the 272 which gives you and a source and preamp upgrade and keeps options open for the future;

buy a used 282 and then an NDS full naim route

buy a used 282 or 252 and a Chord or Linn KDS

and of course many more options...

Hello Mostly Drummer, I'm an example of someone who has drifted out of Naim over the years. I used to own a 282/2xHicaps/2x135 system and abandoned it in favour of Class A amplification from Accuphase.

I found the change in sonic character refreshing and for me, a game-changer. You have options beyond Naim.

How does accuphase class A sound compared to Naim?

Well MD, there's been a lot of very interesting posts & I for one have enjoyed reading them, however, you actually have the right plan identified in your original post:

• go with U-serve
• go with NDS +555PS
• upgrade pre to a 282

From there you won't look back, only forward to a 252 or 552.

In the meantime, go right ahead and look sideways to see what else is ticking people's boxes, but for me the setup you're considering will float not only my boat, but also all the boats at Cowes Week too.

My experience of sideways comparisons at NDS level are limited. Linn appeals strongly on functionality and musical enjoyment, but I prefer Naim's more visceral delivery. You could do a lot worse than taking half a day off and listening at a dealer. 

Having started streaming with the HDX and ended up with NDS, I am confident to recommend not buying a US. But it's your life, your ears and your money. A NAS based server like Asset or Minimserver  will allow you to spend more elsewhere. "Congested" is to my ears a term that can apply equally to 200, 250, 202 and 282. With a source with as much poise and subtlety as the NDS  you are going to get better results with better amps as stated further up the page.

Insert subjectivity disclaimer here.