New B&W 800 Diamond series

A couple of years ago it took advantage of a B&W special offer (they bought back my old speakers at the price I paid for them) to upgrade from 804s to 804d. Obviously, I was concerned that this might be a sideways move, despite the hefty price difference. A home demo quickly showed that the newer speaker was in a different league. As expected, the diamond tweeter is fantastic, but the improvement in the speed a tunefulness of the bass was a real shock. 

Keith

Given that, in the audio equipment world, the quality of an item is often perceived to relate to its weight (compare a 552 with a unitilite, for example), and given too that you want to increase the price of the new speakers by a not insignificant amount (£5k ish?), then what would you do if you were the designer?

Well, you might look at the VW sales enhancing manual which directs you to be 'creative' in your design, you may then consider the price per tonne of concrete and conclude that this inert material has a role to play in your new design. 

(On the other hand, of course, you might not)

If they were to make that offer again I might be interested to buy them sooner rather than later, subject to the usual demo. But, if not, then at least I know the price won't increase, unlike with Naim speakers, when I'm planning an upgrade in two years time. My choice is likely to be between the new 800/802s and the new Kudos Titan 808. Now, talking of price increases, there was a much bigger price hike between the 88 and it's successor the 808.

There have been reports that the 803 D3 does indeed sound as good (or better) than the 802 Diamond...

Likewise the 804D3 is better than the 803 Diamond and the 802D3 is better than the 800 Diamond.

There seems to be quite a bit of disparity between model price increases.

Anyone know why?

Hi!

The day before yesterday I listened to B&W 803D3 and 802D3. I will try to write a few words about my impressions…

To start from the beginning I listened to B&W 802D2 a few days before the new 800-series was announced. The 802D2:s was demoed with Classé electronics and I was underwhelmed with the sound from the demo system. I mostly blamed the Classé electronics. The guy in the store told me that I could get a good price since a new model would be introduced in a few days. I said that although it would be interesting to hear 802D2 in my own stereo at home I preferred to wait for the new 800-series since I suspected it to be better.

My wife also told me that the 802D2 were too ugly to be allowed in our living room…

The day before yesterday I visited the same store to listen to 803D3 in the same room with the same Classé electronics. Maybe my expectations was a bit lower this time since I was underwhelmed by the 802D2:s the last time but this time the demo system sounded rather good. I was actually a bit surprised. Everything in the demo-system was exactly the same except from the speakers. Okay, my expectations may have been different and so on but anyway…

The guy working in the store told me that he rated the 803D3 as clearly better than the old 802D2. He told me that he had been very surprised when they visited B&W for the presentation of the new 800-series. During that demo when they changed from 802D2 to 802D3 is was not like a blanket had been lifted but rather a thick mattress. Okay, this is very likely an exaggeration but I guess that the message is that the difference would be quite clear between the old and new 800-series.

The 803D3 that I listened to had only been played 80h and needed at least 50-100h more to reach their full potential. Compared to what I remember from my earlier demo of the 802D2 the new 803D3 was more “clear” in the sound and seemed to be faster and more “accurate” if that make any sense. I would also say that the midrange and lower frequencies had “higher resolution”. I also thought that the instruments and voices sounded more natural and real but remember that this is from memory of a demo performed several weeks before so don’t take it as fact!

The built quality also seemed very good and they looked rather nice in the flesh. A look that hopefully my wife can accept…

We discussed a bit more and the vendor told me all about the new technologies in the new 800 series. There were some interesting stuff there…

After that he told me that a few hours before they received the 802D3:s but had not had time to unpack them yet. I asked if we could do it right away and so we did. It was fun to see the unboxing and everything seemed to be well thought out. He rolled them into the demo room and placed them next to the 803D3:s. The difference in size was less than I expected but the 802:s were off course a little bit taller, wider and also deeper.

We listened to a few songs and they sounded quite okay right out of the box. We didn’t do any comparisons since it would have been quite meaningless at that point…

In a week or two when they have played a couple of hundred hours on both the 803D3 and 802D3 I will try to revisit the store to do some comparisons between the two. If I’m equally impressed during my next demo I will probably try to borrow one of them for a few days to test in my own system at home… That will be very interesting since I expect them to sound better with my Naim-kit than the Classé electronics.

So far I listened to a few speakers in different stores and tried Audiovector SR6 AA and Marten design Bird 2 at home in my own system. Audiovector SR6 AA was a disappointment but Marten Bird 2 was very impressive.

Another option for me could be to change preamp to NAC552, as everybody here on the forum keeps telling me every time I post anything about speakers…

I appreciate your concern and maybe you are all correct in the advice that it will be better to change to a NAC552 rather than changing speakers…

/Marcus

That was a good read Marcus. Thank you. I'll be interested to hear how things develop. And yes, if a 552 is on your horizon then IMO you should tick that box first. Subject to demo - nothing in this lark is a foregone conclusion.

Thanks Marcus for sharing your first experiences!

I'm the happy owner of a set of 802 D2's, fired by Naim 272&250.2. Still, I will keep my ears open for future development and better SQ. I love the natural and refined B&W sound. In the future I hope to have the opportunity to hear the new 803 D3 side-by-side with my trusted 802 D2, preferably at home.

It would be great if you could tell us your experiences of a well run-in 803 D3 versus 802 D2. Looking forward to your feedback!

Bert,

You may want to consider upgrading to a 300. When I bought the 802s I found my 250 wasn't enough and bought 300 instead. Whilst this powered the speakers fairly well it wasn't until I upgraded to a 500 that they really began to sing.

ATB

Steve

Bert, I had the 805s and they didn't sing much with my NAP 200.

I did try them with a NAP 500 which had total domination over the speakers.

Sold the b&w and got much more easier to drive Dynaudios, sounds MUCH more musical to me.

My advice, keep the amp, and get rid of the B&W.

Get some ovators, Dynaudios, PMC, Neat or Kudos. Maybe even Focal.

Or as Steve correctly says, you need a 500 DR  to bring them to life.

I have a friend who has CD555/552/500 with the mighty Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers (40,000 USD) and now that I have everything set up properly, he did concede my 282HCDR/200/Dynaudios did actually sound very good to him, and said this was much better than when the B&W 805S were playing. He was genuinely impressed.

My point is that there are more compatible speakers than B&W that work much better with Naim

Hi Bert, 

The NAP200 wasn't enough to drive my old 804s speakers, but that was sorted when I upgraded to a 250. I can't speak for the 802, but you may well be fine so don't sell if you love them.

Keith

A classic scenario is evolving here, where people are trying to drive speakers with way under powered amplification and THE SPEAKERS WILL surprisingly NEVER OPEN UP.  As Steve said his 802Ds improved by using a single 500 over biamping with 2 300s, it really is that simple. If there is any doubt try and stick a single 500 up the rears of a pair of N sats and see what you are actually witnessing! ATB Peter

Guys,

Thanks for your advice. Actually some months ago my NAP250 shut down in overheat protection mode when my daughter played dance music, only at 60% output of the 272. This shows indeed that the NAP250 is on the light side for the 802.

That said, I mostly play classical music between 30-50% pre-amp output and I'm very pleased with the sound.

Allright then, one day, when the money will fall from the sky, I'll get myself a NAP500 with B&W 802 D3....  £19,000 more to go!

Why are speakers so hard to drive these days?

In the 1970s the great majority of people used amplifiers with a rating of 15 Watts per each channel or less. In the decades before that even less. Of course there were some very expensive amplifiers that were rated at rather more, but these were hardly mainstream.

People were not listening to very quiet replay. The speakers of the day were simply less current hungry as a rule. I am thinking of the UK here as I realise that in the USA much more powerful amplifiers have long since been used. 

My speaker is a single ESL that would be perfectly happy with a single channel ten or twelve Watts of amplification. 

I would say that speakers that need a good deal more than twenty or thirty Watts to get a good sound are simply badly designed. Yet people get suckered into buying speakers that require four and five figure sums being spent on a power amp that can bring them to life, because they are thunderously current hungry. For the customer this is bad news. These are poorly designed speakers that challenge high quality if modestly power rated amplifiers that could bring superb results with the equivalent high quality speaker type offering decent efficiency.

I have done some simple experiments with the ESLs with my SMART metre, and it seems that for one channel [i.e. one speaker driven] the difference in mains metered consumption between "on but no volume" and my normal listening level is two Watts [The NAP 100 draws ten Watts as quiescent and twelve when playing music at normal levels], which rather suggests that I am nowhere near challenging the speaker or the amplifier. The ESL itself draws a steady Watt to remain charged on the driver.

ATB from George

Hello George,

I know you're delighted with your ESLs but, despite being 'suckered' into buying the 802s I'm also delighted with them, as are more on this forum. Each to their own.

ATB

Steve 

Dear Doctor Johnson!

I am not doubting that if you put a power amplifier rocket under them [like your NAP 500] then they will be most enjoyable!

I am not doubting that you enjoy them, or doubting anything else ...

But the reality is that there are some speakers that simply require ultra-powerful amplification to be good. I am not sure that is the most economical route to enjoyable and high quality replay. That was the thrust of my post. Not doubting the judgement of those who go that way. The start of the power hungry speaker in the UK was probably those Linn Iso-bar-barics ... the Isobarik and the Sara! 

I still think this is a route that has led to less economic solutions to quality replay than very efficient high quality speakers.

Best wishes from George

Good as the 272/250 is, I cannot imagine driving 802s with it, or even with the much better DR version. We are well into mullet territory here. 

Like Peter I have tried the little nSats with a 300 (rather than a 500) and they were unbelievable. But big speakers and a little amp: that's a recipe for disaster, incredible dullness, or both. 

No problem George. Have a good weekend.

Dear Steve,

On the radio side - now I have actually two Leak Trough Line 3s - I am looking for a Leak TL 10.1 or 12/1 - rated at ten or twelve Watts as an almost contemporary to my ESL and my Trough Line tuner.

I’ll keep the NAP 100 for the digital side. 

It would be fascinating to compare ten watts of mono valve amplification with two channels of good solid state amplification at five times the rated power on each channel!

Given the power efficiency of the ESLs, I imagine that the differences may indeed be surprisingly small. The great thing about the TL10.1 compared to the 12.1 is that the 12.1 is "chic and expensive," while the identical 10.1 - identical in the way that the 140 is identical tot the 110 - is the orphan that is not fashionably expensive.

I think you can see which will come here!

It is all good fun really!

ATB from George

My friend has your speakers George and would love to have my system. I don't want to get into a pissing contest. 

ATB

Steve

Dear Steve,

I lack all sense of the competitive! I was the despair of my school gym teachers as I was a talented cross-country runner who had no interest in winning! I used to run just fast enough to avoid being demoted to the juniors with the consequential ticking off for not trying[!], but just slow enough to avoid being promoted to the nine mile run!

I left that to the competitors!

Best wishes from George

And probably one in the top, too, to damp out the eccentric motion of a drum full of washing at spin speeds and stop the thing dancing across the floor.

Halibut,

You write you cannot imagine the NAP 250.2 to drive the B&W 802, and you calling the combination "big speakers and a little amp a recipe for disaster, incredible dullness, or both". Let me relieve you: The combination 272-250-802D2 sounds fantastic in my 5x9 meter living room! I normally play at 20-40% output of the 272, and with 50-60% output I get a great, impressive soundstage with the impression of a concert hall. No dullness whatsoever, instead the combination sounds very lively, detailed and natural.

What I'm interested in is if and how much better the new B&W 800 D3 series will sound compared to the existing D2 (Diamond) series, especially 803D3 versus 802D2 which are in the same price range.

Marcus M wrote the following:

The 803D3 that I listened to had only been played 80h and needed at least 50-100h more to reach their full potential. Compared to what I remember from my earlier demo of the 802D2 the new 803D3 was more “clear” in the sound and seemed to be faster and more “accurate” if that make any sense. I would also say that the midrange and lower frequencies had “higher resolution”. I also thought that the instruments and voices sounded more natural and real but remember that this is from memory of a demo performed several weeks before so don’t take it as fact!

So his first impression were good but he admitted it was not a side-by-side comparison, he heard them several weeks apart.

Marcus, have you heard the D3 series next to a D2 model already?

Anybody else on the forum?

Not yet. I think there could be an element of apples versus bowling balls if comparing a D3 model to it's equivalently named D2 predecessor. My understanding is that they are different designs and only share their names. Keith's special offer anecdote got my attention and I wonder if something similar might emerge. But I haven't had any ears on yet. Getting the 500 DR'd will be the next job. No point in fiddling about with speakers until the amps are finalised.

Thanks Harry. Indeed, we should not compare a D3 model with its equivalently named D2 predecessor. It's better to compare on price basis: how much bang for the same bucks?

That's why I'm interested in (and was asking for) the comparsion 803D3 (£12,000) versus 802D2 (£11,000).