New B&W 800 Diamond series

Well, Bert, it seems that I'm wrong in this case. It's not unusual..... My 250DR has been running for about two months now, and is so much better than when I first got it. It's an astonishing amplifier, and a world away from the 250.2. You should try one, if you feel the power of your 250.2 is enough, and you don't intend to get a 300DR. You'd also do well to look at an XPSDR, which will transform the 272. I'm definitely right about that!

Halibut,

Great to hear this. However I would not like to increase my number of boxes (and Mrs B has an even stronger opinion on this ), so 300 or XPS-DR is out of the question.

The most likely upgrade is for me is then to 'upgrade' my 3 year old 250.2 with the DR hardware (which Naim is offering next year), or replace it by a new 250DR.

So you heard a noticeable improvement when changing from 250.2 to 250DR? I thought the improvement was more on the background noise level? Did you hear them side by side?

At a NAIM/Focal demo recently the owner and myself (with a large dollop of wine) discussed more expensive speakers on less expensive amplifiers. Would a 250DR be enough to drive say Focal Sopra 2 where it may be best suited to Aria 926/936?

Is there a new way to look at building a system due to amps and hi-res streaming is now so good and lower price points that taking your money and investing in more expensive speakers is a way to approach a new system build?

He mentioned this is where he feels he can offer a customer a much better value build, good amps and streaming at one price point but invest in much more expensive speakers to compliment that amp build.

He was relating Dali/Focal speakers to the 250DR level of amp and its performance level is enough to invest in those better speakers not normally associated at that level. Interesting.

I heard a 250dr driving Sopra 2 (and a 300dr for that matter) last weekend and it did it beautifully.  I felt the 300 had more grip and low down power but the 250 was excellent too and it was significantly better than the non dr version

I heard the new 803's at The Sound Organisation (York) and they came across very well.

I liked them and would describe them as clear and refined but did not have that power of my 802's. Although the SORG did drive them through a NAP 250DR (I think?) and some Naim streamer...and whilst nice it sounded a bit too 'digital' to my ears.

If you think the new 803's are equivalent to  the old 802's then I would definitely say they are different sounding speakers all together and I much preferred my 802 Diamonds. Admittedly I did not hear the new 803s at home in my system.

I think they will sell well.

Richard

Thanks Richard!

An important parameter for the lower end of a speaker is the surface area of the woofers. For the same volume, larger woofers need less amplitude, hence less distortion.

The new 803D3 has two 7" woofers whereas the 802D2 has 8" woofers. So the surface area of the 802 is 30% higher (8/7^2) and I guess that is what you heard in terms of power.

Not sure if I want to pay more for a speaker with smaller woofers.... I will try to hear them side by side at my dealer during Christmas break!

Thanks FT, so definitely something worth pursuing, especially if it can be done via an upgrade. Another reason for a listening test at my dealer!

Dan,

there you go. I have listened to various speaker and various amps, and my conclusion is always: invest in the speaker, it's the key component determining how your system sounds. Speakers have significant differences in character, they really sound different, just like human voices.

Amps have much less impact. There is of course a difference of authority and control, but at normal living room volumes, Naim's high-end amps sound very similar to my ears.

Video of the making of the previous model 802D

Yesterday I did a quick (1,5h) comparison between 803D3 and 802D3. I visited the same dealer that I have visited before and “reported” on this thread. This comparison was carried out in the same room as before and with the same Classé-electronics.

A general impression is that the demo-system is not very well composed regarding the components. It’s a “mullet”! 10k euro electronics (including cables and all components) into 16k euro (803D3) or 20k euro (802D3) speakers. My own system at home sounds quite a bit better to my ears…

Okay, under these conditions was it possible to hear any difference between the two models?

Yes, it was!

First of all both speakers share a lot qualities. It’s easy to hear that they are “related” and have a very similar sound signature. No surprise there

I still got a bit surprised over the differences after listening to both of them. More on that soon…

Before we started to listen I discussed a bit with the salesman. He told me that he hadn’t compared the two speakers side by side but rather listened to one of them for several hours and then switched to the other speaker. This was mainly done during break-in so no really serious listening. They have only had the speakers for a short period of time. His impression so far and what he had been informed from B&W was that 802 needs a bigger room to function really well but a part from that they would have a similar quality. Sure, the 802 have a bigger midrange unit and a bigger cabinet but will that have any major effect on the sound? The salesman thought not…

We started with a few songs with the 803D3 and then switched to the 802D3 and repeated the last song. After that song I requested that he changed back just to check that I didn’t imagined things. No I wasn’t. The 802D3 had a more precise bass that was more “solid”. You could easily hear the difference. The bass in the 802:s seemed faster and had less problem creating a transient (if you understand what I’m trying to say??). Better bass performance!

The other area where I easily heard a difference was the midrange. You had a better presence and instruments and especially voices sounded more real and lifelike.

Less surprisingly the 802D3:s had a bigger and more “airy” soundstage. The 802D3 also seemed to have less distortion and a cleaner but also more enjoyable sound.

I must say that I’m a bit surprised over the differences that I heard. So was the salesman! He said that it had been a very interesting test for him and that he was really surprised of the big difference between the two speakers.

Okay, I can understand that the 802:s have a bigger soundstage and more bass response but I’m really surprised that the quality (not quantity) of the bass output differed in that way. I’m also surprised that the difference between the midrange was that easy to hear… The 802D3 seemed to be a better speaker than 803D3, no question about it…

All is off course relative. The “big” difference that I heard, how “big” is “big”…  All that I can say is that it was quite easy to hear the differences. In that room with that system.

Would the difference between the two speakers be bigger or smaller with other (better) electronics? I don’t know and will probably never find out.

Have anybody else done the comparison between 803D3 and 802D3…? Anybody compared 803D3 to Focal Sopra No2 or other speaker in the same price range?

/Marcus

Marcus, can you give some indication of the room size you did the demo in, and the positioning of the speakers within the room?

Also do you have any experience with the previous Diamond series and could you make any comments on the 803D3 vs 802Diamond?

Marcus,

great stuff, many thanks for your detailed report!

You ask: "Would the difference between the two speakers be bigger or smaller with other (better) electronics? "  I think this is a second order effect. In my experience, if you hear a difference between two speakers with a certain high-end system, you will hear a similar difference with another high-end system.

I have the same question as Eloise: were you able to compare the (£12,000) 803-D3 with the (£11,000) 802-D2/Diamond?

Thanks Marcus. I'm resisting having a listen for a while as I don't want too be tempted too soon before I move.

I will try to answer your questions the best I can…

I didn’t measure the demo room but I would say that it is 6 x 4m or something like that. It is acoustically treated and have the same height as a normal house, 2,5m or maybe a little bit more.

The speakers were placed in the corners on the short wall. I would say that they were 0,5-0,7 m from the side wall and 0,3 – 0,5 m from the back wall. Not far out in the room but rather close to the corner.

Unfortunately I couldn’t compare 803D3 to 802D2 due to the fact that the 802D2 were sold. The salesman told me that they had done some comparison between the two and that he preferred the new 800-series (maybe he have to say that as a salesman?). He said that the new 800-series is cleaner, faster and with a bigger more airy soundstage. He also said that the new 800-series is more “hifi-correct” and that the old 802D2 also had some good quality’s such a warmer midrange.

This is just what the salesman told me and I have not listened to the two speakers side by side myself.

/Marcus

Hi Bert,

Thank you for the feedback.

Sounds like (in summary) that the 803D3 are good, but if you have the money the 802D3 are better in every way... Now just have to hear them on the end of some Naim equipment.

Dan,

The 272/250DR is a great combo for any normal sized living room, and you can crank it up to really loud volumes. Try to listen to this set with a number of high end speakers playing a variety of music: voices, acoustic guitar, piano, big bands (Frank Sinatra!), rock etc.

Small tip: the models you mention are both from Focal, so they may sound similarly. Think wide! Try other brands in the same price range, you will be amazed with the difference in sound. I listened to B&W, Avalon and Wilson Audio. They are all great speakers, but quite different in character. It's a matter of taste which one you prefer.

Like expensive cars: the top models of BMW, Audi and Mercedes are all fantastic cars, they all drive you very comfortably from A to B, but yet they are quite different animals