Dropouts using NDS

I have never experienced this - perhaps you should try out a temporary exchange with a cheap Ethernet cable, to exclude the cable.

Sounds like the sound is cutting out when the buffer runs out, especially if it's happening in a more or less cyclical pattern with hi-res files. If you press the i button on the remote a few times until the display shows 'buffer level' you'll be able to see if this is the case. However, this shouldn't really be happening with a wired connection - I used to get it sometimes streaming 24/192 over wifi. 

Good idea - there is one ethernet cable in particular I suspect and will try replacing that one first. Problem is this issue is very intermittent.

Thanks for this tip.

I suspect something is struggling to get associated with the new NDS MAC address.  Might be worth a reboot of the whole system to get everything re-introduced.

All off & then leave it for 5 minutes.

Restart the system in the following order

Wireless router - let it finish its start procedure

NAS - let it complete its full start process

NDS

Switch

... the NDS should now find the network but may need help with the front panel buttons.

App – good idea to clear all the caches,  or a complete reset,   or delete & re-install the app.

Thanks for this - should of thought of a full reboot myself. I have alrady reset the App and will now reboot the network devices as you suggest.

I did experience this once, with my ethernet-wired NDS and UnitiServe.  Same issue with my Qute2 on the same network.  My Apple Time Capsule was at fault. I never figured out WHY, but it was.  The Time Capsule wasn't even doing anything for music playback, other than providing wifi for the Naim App. A factory reset of the Time Capsule cured the issue, and it's now been a year and all's remained fine.

I switched my NDS and my Qute2 to the display that showed the buffer, and I could definitely see it run out when the music paused.  Sometimes it refilled and the music started again, and sometimes it just timed out and the music stopped entirely.  But it was definitely a faulty Time Capsule.

I had this problem a whole back and fixed it by replacing the switch, but it's one of those things that's difficult to pin down. 

I agree the full reboot is the place to start.

I didnt know know about the on screen buffer - good tip, thanks Chris.

Keith

Hi Mike,

What is the reason for powering up the switch last?

Keith

Hi just picked up on this... Given you say you think it happens more with one particular cable my advice.

1) check buffer as discussed.. and if you see it depleting after re switch on etc then..

2) replace suspect cable... or replace any cable you have recently reconnected with your NDS

reason:

a faulty cable/connector might only be allowing half duplex connection. This means one of the twisted pairs on the cable / connector could be broken or marginal. A half duplex connection is completely valid, and if you used a network hub instead of a switch this is how the connections would be being set up. However although half duplex link speed remains at 100 Mbps for example, the throughput significantly reduces compares to a full duplex connection, and you might be just seeing this as an issue on 192/24 media transfers.

In an extreme case if cables make no difference, and the NDX still gives no issue, then it might suggest a bad ethernet connector in the NDS, and your dealer should be able to advise.

Simon

Have you tried playing your 192kHz files using the NDS USB input and, if so, do you still get dropouts? This may tell you whether your issue is network related or something else.

Also what version of the firmware are you using on your NDS ? I have experienced similar problems with DSD and HiRes files (anything above 24bit 96kHz) since updating my NDS to firmware 4.3)

See thread https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-on-nds-firmware-4-3

If you do have the same issue, please report it to Phil Harris at naim support.

email address: support@naimaudio.com

An unmanaged switch needs to "learn" who its LAN partners are & it does this best by making its initial power-up connection when all the team are on & live up to the switch. This sequence instruction is included in Netgear's Connection guide.  I've also had it confirmed as best practice by an IT guy.   

I do it this way & it works 100% every time,  whereas in the past when I had a complete system power down & restart I had initial discovery issues & it seemed to take a lot of faffing to get the bits talking to each other.   Now it connects 1st time every time.

Hi - any luck on swapping out the particular cable which causes these flow issues?

Simon

Mike - a switch regularly rebuilds its MAC table and it constantly rebuilds it by listening and relaying the ARP requests from a host to hosts - which is exactly how a switch (whether it be managed or unmanaged) is designed to operate. Therefore layer 2 address discovery and refresh is constant. I personally cant see any benefit in powering a switch up first or last it should be arbitrary - however if it works for you then fine that is great news.

But there is also an argument to increase compatibility for poorly written software with a bad DHCP client implementation that having the switch on first could increase chance of successful DHCP address assignment - with the host otherwise stalling - I have seen this before on consumer stuff.

And of course in the managed pro world is a switch is powered up first for configuration with typically unused ports administratively powered down.

Obliged Simon,  I was talking "initial" switch power up & not continuous running MAC rebuild/refresh.. 

The DHCP delay issue I understand, however this whole power up sequence is only around 1 minute once the router is on  - although the illustrious Phil Harris advocates a slower switch on sequence w.r.t. the router  

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...36#49154750026192936

Mike fair do's but I am not aware of difference in behaviour between start up and refresh in terms on ARP and MAC address building - other than when you start a connected network up from scratch with say a switch powering on you will get a flood of ARP messages as a high volume of active hosts are trying to discover where their destination hosts are on the subnet  - the Switch is busy listening and learning from this ARP traffic  and then settles down a more steady state. ARP requests are always broadcast out on all ports for.

In the pro world with large busy subnets this ARP storm can cause issues and so needs to be managed - the humble homework though I imagine for 99.99% of time its inconsequential.

Thanks to you all for your helpful advice.

I have rebooted the network devices using Mike's switch on method (I know Simon doubts the need for the order of switch on but I am very happy to use a method that has worked 100% for others) and am monitoring the buffer level on the front panel and it appears to be staying full even when playing 24/192 files. I have also reset the App again.

All looks well at the moment but if I get further dropout issues I will replace the Ethernet cable I have a suspicion over.

Does anybody know if the colour of the lights that flash on the back network devices give any indication of the speed/robutness of the adjacent Ethernet connection. I know that the colour of lights on Ethernet over mains plugs indicate the quality of the ethernet connection via main (green being good, yellow fair and orange poor) and wondered if streamers, switches and servers provide a similar indication. Sorry if this appears a dumb question -I am still learning about networks.

After rebooting my network all appears to be well touch wood.

I have just played a few tracks of a DSD album downloaded from Native DSD (I think) DSD64 2.8MHz via a USB/ iPod input on the NDS and have not experienced any dropouts so far. It looks like we have had similar problems but the causes appears to be different.

Sorry I am unable to offer any advice (other than keep chasing Naim for a diagnosis) as I am still learning myself. Anyway I though this feedback might help in narrowing down the potential causes.

I spoke too soon. I had a one second drop out while listening to a DSD album via the USB/iPod input on the NDS.

I thought I would also stream the same album from my iMac (using Minimserver) so I could monitor the Buffer level. Unfortunately I got another one second drop out after a couple of tracks but the buffer appears to be remaining full. My secondhand NDS has been updated to 4.3 version software and I know sjbabby had similar problems with his NDS after updating to 4.3.

I too have an iMac (although it doesn't do music serving duties normally) and of course it comes with Time Capsule which was an issue for Bart. But this was not an issue with the NDX unless it is something peculiar between Time Capsule and the NDS specifically.

As I had dropouts with both the USB input and streaming over the network, this would imply that the issue is not with the network/network devices but with the NDS. Litlle point it would appear messing around replacing cables or switches and trying to sort out potential Time Capsule issues then If the issue is with the NDS.

I am at a bit of a loss - any advice gratefully received.

Ok, if the buffer is showing full, and the issue is also via USB it is unlikely to be network related.. so I wonder if it's 4.3 firmware related then... at least that suspect lead has been saved from the bin 

as as far as lights they will vary from device to device in terms of Ethernet port speed and duplex setting .. However a flicker indicates data.. If they all flicker at the same time it is a broadcast, multicast or ARP discovery data.

Simon

OK,  the system reboot eliminated a possible cause,   its a 1st step that is very simple & it cost nothing. 

Next is to try another cable (or two)  but I'm not convinced that's the solution either. 

Why ?  its the reason I'm posting on this thread again  --

-- I've just had a dropout myself,  & I've never had it before.

I downloaded a new DSD64 this afternoon & had a ~1 second stop/silence on the 2nd track.   s### !!,  I replayed the track again, perfect !!   Carried on playing & a few tracks later it did it again, I replayed that track again & it played perfectly.  I then turned the NDX display to buffer view & watched while playing the album again - no drop outs & buffer was rock steady. 

I'm beginning to think it might be in the software.  

I posting this as a report on the beta Forum

I have also had this problem since the 4.3 update. Downloaded the 192 Roger Waters Amused to Death and have noticed about 1 sec dropouts. Initially thought was a bad download but the dropouts occur at different points each time so assume the download is ok. Never noticed a problem with 192 before.

I am just playing a 24/192 album via the USB/iPod on the NDS input and so far have had no drop outs. I will keep listening though.

So the (recent since rebooting) dropouts have been when playing a DSD64 files via both the USB/iPod input and when streaming from my iMac. Assuming I don't get any dropouts now from 24/192 files it would appear it is version 4.3's (in)ability to play DSD files uninterrupted on NDS (and possibly NDX).

Would appreciate your thoughts on my analysis and any feedback you get Mike from your reporting this issue.

On NDX I have not had an issue so far, but I stream DoP from NDX to an external DAC

No problems even when playing DSD64 files?

Indeed, DoP is only used for sending DSD over a PCM framed transport such as SPDIF.

Simon