IBLs in a square room

I'm not sure what you mean about the NDS having so much prat that you couldn't tell one violin from another. Nor is it clear what not getting a coherent sound means, if would help to have a bit more detail.

But to speakers - I've owned IBLs, driven by a 250 and they were the fastest tightest speakers I've heard. Very different to the PMCs, which have a much fuller sound. In a sparsely furnished room they might be too much. As for Sats, they are not really up to the standards of 135s, and while very good are nothing like as open and transparent as the IBL. Do you specifically want a wall hugging speaker? If so, SBLs would give a fuller sound than IBLs, which while great, can be a little relentless. 

Small square rooms can indeed be acoustically problematic. Try to audition at home, some small-ish sealed box loudspeakers which limit bass extension.

ATC SCM series? Or the Russell K 100 which has a front reflex port tuned to 35 Hz, allowing them effectively, to work as a sealed box at most bass frequencies and be sited fairly close to a wall. That tuned port frequency should be below your potential 'boom zone'.

Good luck.

John.

Thanks JN and HH.

Wall hugging would be ideal. When I say incoherent, I mean that I know the detail is in there, it's just not gelling together.  I was just expecting someone to say that SBL bass would be to much for the room, or that its fuller sound would overwhelm. But I'd be happy to be put right on that.

It's a really sensitive room.  The NDS worked best of all the sources I've had in there.  I assume that its tighter rhythmic presentation gave the room less ambient information to deal with. My Linn Renew presents more spacial information and perhaps the room has more than it can handle.

The only other speakers I've used in there are the rear ported Rega Juras that are resident in my oblong living room at the end of an LP12/Nait 1.  And that set up sounds better than my office despite costing a fraction.  The Juras were hopeless in the office.

Thanks!

Depending on where you live, you might be able to borrow some SBLs from a dealer - Tom Tom are likely to be the only people who have them though. My room is 3.6 by 5m, so about the same size overall (though clearly not square!) and I've used SBLs (and now SL2s) very happily. But I do have a carpet, a sofa and two armchairs, which damp the room nicely, and look better than acoustic panels. Because the SBL is sealed it should not boom. 

Small square rooms are pretty hellish acoustically - only thing worse would be a small perfect cube.  Without wishing to sound trite, I wouldn't try too hard in such a room, you could spend a fortune and still be dissatisfied. I recommend a good quality headphone setup instead.

By the way, I will disagree with HH here on n-Sats.  Having run them with great success on the end of a CD555, NAC552 and NAP500 I'd say they can hold their own with some very fancy gear indeed.  Also when doing some testing of a pair of n-Sats (on n-Stands), some Kans (on Kan II stands), and some final spec IBLs, I surprised myself by consistently preferring the n-Sats with the digital front end.  However, I should add that I preferred the IBLs when the source switched to analogue (LP12, Aro, Armageddon etc..).  An interesting day....

Yes, I expected that you would say that.  I have a Hugo and some Sennheiser 700s and the although flawed, the room sounds better.  One dealer did tell me that a good set of headphones and H Amplifier would be a great experience, so perhaps I need to try some more out. I've purchased from Tom Tom before so he might be able to help with speakers.  Thanks all.

There's nothing quite like first hand experience.  Even each square room will be slightly different and will present differing problems and opportunities depending on construction, carpeting, furnishing, windows etc..  This is where a supportive dealer can really be worth so much.  So, yes, give James a call and see whether he can rise to the challenge..

I'll keep you posted.  Don't feel ready to part with 52 and 135s yet!

IBLs your best bet, I'd say, especially in the company of those amps.

Chris

Thanks Chris.  Hope to get some to try soon.  With the added bonus on indulging in more 135s if I can get an active crossover.

I still haven't tried the IBLs but have tried others and am coming around to Richard's view.  The room doesn't want to play.  I had a great dem of some Audeze LCD-3s today. I'll compromise on my speaker arrangement and focus on the headphones. One day, the 135s and NAC 52 can be deployed elsewhere.

Thanks Richard for your input. and to Chris and Nigel too.

Try looking up GIK Acoustics RPG, Vicoustic or RealTraps websites. They all make acoustic products, but have great educational material as well to help you understand room modes and all that. Small square rooms are the worst acoustically, BUT they can be tamed. The RPG Modex is good and not too bulky. My room is a small dedicated bedroom 11'x9'x8' and I use JBLS4700 speakers with 15" drivers! Yet after a LOT of work and learning, I now have a near flat room down to +/-7db in 1/24th frequency test down to 35Hz!! It is very good, and I mean even qualified acoustic engineers are impressed but it took a lot of work! My suggestion, it saves NO money doing it yourself properly, dense fibreglass panels are ok for rooms which are very good to start with, but not ours. It is cheaper, quicker and better to pay a professional to use a microphone and software, then buy well made AND a great brand (not small maker) to install panels in the appropriate places. It takes too long to explain the theory, but remember low frequencies travel through brick, so a couple of panels 2" thick on a few walls will achieve little. I have been able to dedicate my whole room so it was easier, but don't feel glum it can and will work for you. I can pretty much guarantee you'll get better results paying someone, it might cost a couple of thousand, but my room ended up costing me more than if I had of had it done professionally, and took 7 months of trial and error, I shit you not! To avoid massive bulk in your room I myself became interested in those RPG Modex plates and panels, they look good and are not 4 or 5 inch thick in every corner ect. If you want more help I will help you, but I honestly recommend a pro, I now hear layers of music in the LF/MF range which was masked by room boom initially. All I hear now is Naim and JBL, and I nearly cry tears of joy!

Thanks very Steve, very good of you to take the trouble. I'll do some learning.  My brother has just put a big piano in a tricky room and someone is helping him sort the sound out.  That's the way to go.  In the meantime, the headphones are fun!

+1 for all the above.

The biggest resonance problem you'll have is at 43Hz and if the room is sparsely furnished it could easily exceed +18dB!  That's mess up your audio perception big time.

There are two things you should look at for so specific a resonance: Tuned Membrane panels and Helmholtz  resonators.  Thin absorbent materials will make little difference.  I agree that in your case with your level of equipment professional installation is indicated.

I have a nearly square room and have achieved +/- 6dB 24th octave smoothing and +/- 3 dB 3rd octave smoothing, but it has takes a LOT of bass traps to achieve that.

Don't dismiss using a sub with smaller speakers as well.  This has the advantage that the lower LF frequencies (where the worst resonances lie) can be tuned independently of the rest of the audio spectrum.  Positioning and tuning the sub was a big factor in the gains I made in my room.

After all the acoustic treatment, you may then also consider Digital room Correction to remove the last non-idealities that can't be corrected acoustically.

Thanks Huge. That helps to clarify to situation here. The Linn streamer has room correction built in and has applied a significant correction somewhere around 50Hz. Doesn't help the turntable but 

does achieve a little better focus with streamer.  I now wonder whether my natural inclination to play piano and small scale chamber music in preference to orchestral has developed to suit the acoustic. In the meantime I auditioned and purchased an Auralic Taurus headphone amp. The Audeze LCD3s are next on the list.

Just to say it is possible to get a great sound from a small square room.

Mine is virtually 11ft x 11ft and im using Rega RS10.   Initially I had acoustic problems but with help from my dealer and GIK , a total solution was found with just 4 panels at a cost of below £600.

So don't give up on the room yet.

RS10s, gorgeous.

C.

Rega RS10s, rich man's Ovators ;-)

Chris

That should read EX rich man !!

HaHa!

Folkman, I take it you have the small room settings on the RS10s? That struck me as neat.

C.

No , actually running them in position 2 .   I found this gave the most balanced /natural sound ,

What does make a big difference is having side drivers in or out.  Being a small room and the speakers nearish the side walls , we assumed having them pointing in was the way to go.

Ok they sounded good but slightly underwhelmed.

Conversation with Rega and Paul Darwin resulted in a drivers out position.  Then came the GIK panels to reduce the increased wall reflections.  Result !

Sorry to the o/p for hijacking the thread.

I also would propose that the problem is your room... not your speakers or system.

I moved to a new house in July and the listening room is almost a perfect cube... 12.5 feet x 1.51 feet x 9 feet. 

I've tamed the room by making a nominal investment in acoustic panels. Absorbing panels on the 1st and 2nd reflection points, diffusing panels in the corners behind the speakers, and behind the listening position. The room sounds great now to my ears. Try some room treatments... probably an investment of about $500 in panels would make a big improvement.

oops... for the above post the dimensions of the room should be 11.5 x 12.5 x 9 feet (height)

I'll never forget hearing IBL's run active with 2 x 500s.  They can make bass when properly driven.