Ex dem amps from a dealer

This thread has brought up an interesting point between second hand and ex-dem items. In most cases the term second hand has been used in a derogatory fashion in relation to ex-dem.

I would think that most 2nd hand Naim kit between 0-5 years old has been owned by 1 or 2 users - effectivey set up on a shelf, switched on, and used consistently, having been disconnected and moved about a minimum of times.

Whereas ex-dem, by definition, has been on/off, connected/disconnected, lugged around the shop/transported in the boots of cars, set up /taken down etc. 10s if not 100s of times before being sold on. Effectively experiencing considerably more wear and tear than a 2nd hand item.

So warranty and potential dealer support aside, how could ex-dem be deemed preferable?

I think this is going to really depend on the dealer. 20 years ago, when I used to work for one, the Naim kit was generally stationary and powered on constantly in a demonstration room. It may have done a rotation to the actual shop floor once or twice a year. It was never lugged around in the boot of a car either. If it went anywhere, it went properly boxed but generally stayed at the shop.

SamS raises a very valid point though. May be worth ascertaining the history of the units with the dealer. But I would not assume that they had been through the mill.

(It's my understanding that) Naim dealers here in the US are able to offer the full five year warranty on "new" ex-dem items. Individual dealers also offer varying guaranteed buy-back values for upgrades made within a defined time period. Buy s/h from the usual online venues, and if it goes tits-up tomorrow, you're left holding the bag. Still, Naim's reputation for reliability gives s/h buyers confidence in the online market.

I see the point a little bit different than the other members her. We want our dealers to stock the whole range of naim, at the same time we want them to sell there stock for 25% off. The result here in Germany is, that many dealers sell there stock (for 25% off) but don't stock new  items. If we want dealers who stock the whole range of products (and not only naim), we have to pay a good price, so l think 10% off for an ex-dem unit is ok. Christoph 

I must admit I thought dealer demo kit were assets held by the dealer. In my experience assets are depreciated for a business over typically 5 years from an accounting point of view. Therefore an asset used as a demonstrator 1 year old will already be written down by 20% by the dealer. Certainly with my dealer, this is a consideration for 1 year old demo kit and seems to often work for both parties.

The result here in Germany is, that many dealers sell there stock (for 25% off) but don't stock new  items

Same situation here in France, I was offered a 25% discount on a CDX2 last week (not ex dem, not second hand, straight from the distributor). The local dealer did say "times are hard"... but this makes the notion of a list price ridiculous.

 Without the list price how would you know it was a 25% discount?

I'm sure you understand what I mean...

With just a 10% saving on 3 year old equipment I personally would pay the extra  just to get the updated 200DR and more likely than not buying new a dealer might throw in some freebjes or cables  which effectively amounts to a  discount anyway.

Don't forget that if at some stage if you decide to sell the units you'll get a better price if the unit is 3 years newer of course.

So either you get a pretty good discount now or I personally wouldn't touch it.

I agree with the last comment - for 10% I'd go new and then you know the history from day 1. Otherwise drive a hard bargain - the are many ex-dem 202/200/HiCaps out there, so use your consumer's prerogative and shop around...! I've also managed to get a reasonable discount on many of my new Naim boxes too. As the old saying goes - if you don't ask you don't get.

i forgot to say that i meant the 10% off is ok for items from the actual range. 10% for a 200 non dr is not ok, i think. christoph

very interesting point Sam...

enjoy

ken

What is the VAT situation on ex dem?

Surely its "used". So that £2400 amp is now £2000 before any depreciation.

| cant remember what happens-- is it vatable on the difference between the dealer price and the dealer sale price? What happens if its ex-dem then?

Not sure of the rules but if you look at Signals ex Dem / offers area it shows some ex Dem as VAT free NDX and some Inc. VAT 20% NAP300

I would have expected all ex Dem to be VAT claimable but it doesn't appear to be the case

Gus

As SamS says, ex-dem may not be better than second-hand - a well-looked-after amp with one owner may be much better than an ex-dem one that's been loaned out to people who thought they'd give the thermal cut-out a good test. Buying anything but new, that's the risk . . . you don't know exactly what you're getting.

Almost all my hifi is ex-dem - I got about about 25% off the 172 and almost 50% off the NAP200, both a year old at the time, and I even got 15% off the speakers, which were a couple of weeks old and had been used just a few times. Even my Rega Planar 3 was ex-dem, about 25 years ago. To me, those discounts make the risk worthwhile. Otherwise I'd buy new.

You have had a lot of good (if occasionally conflicting) advice on the 'right' price for different aged exdem models and you now seem on the right path.

The 200DR came out a several weeks ago. I believe there is still a short wait for 250DRs, not sure if there is a wait for 200DRs.

I have to say it is a little disappointing that your dealer didn't offer a better deal up front and did not explain the implications the new DR technology has had on both secondhand values of non DR kit and the step forward the new DR kit has taken in terms of sound quality (maybe he did but I suspect not). You have had long term relationship with this dealer and have continued to buy every year. I have banged on before about the value to both customer and dealer of forming a relationship based on mutual trust. This is particularly key with Naim gear as there is such a long upgrade path one can follow if desired and Naim are continually innovating and developing their kit, both of which usually lead to ongoing purchases.

I would say that it is quite normal for a Naim dealer in the UK loan out kit. He may ask for a returnable deposit until he gets to know you, but a dealer is not necessarily going beyond the call of duty by providing loans. So don't feel be holding to him merely because he has loaned you some gear, particularly if he holds out for these rather high (IMHO) exdem prices. Also listen to the 202 with the new 200DR and see if you really need that Hicap right now.

Don't forget that if you get a 202 you really should get a napsc. I don't like the 202 without it. The responses here have of course focused on the price of the 202/200, but it's worth asking what the rest of the system is. For instance, if you are thinking of streaming, a 272 might be a better option, for the pride of a 202/Hicap you get streamer, amp, DAC and Internet radio. It sounds way better than a 202 as well, and you don't need a napsc. 

VAT is applied to the net price the dealer charges you. To get to the net price with VAT @ 20% you take 1/6th off the price he charges you e.g. if you pay £5k the VAT is £833 and the dealer's price is £4167 (not £1k and £4k that a cursory calculation might suggest).  

VAT at 20% is still applicable if the unit is ex-dem and the dealer discounts the price.  The calculation is the same.  Some retailers in some sectors advertise that at their price you 'save the VAT' but it's just a marketing gimmick.  The retailer is discounting his net price so that the gross price gives a 20% savings. You're still paying VAT.

If the dealer is selling you a unit that is second-hand e.g. a trade-in unit that he has taken in part-exchange previously, the dealer only needs charge VAT on the margin he makes, not the full net price.  For example if the dealer allowed a £1000 PX against a unit and then sells it to you for £1600, VAT should only have been applied to the difference which in this case would have been £100 (1/6th of £600 or 20% on the dealer's £500 margin).  

Mike 

If the price is right and you don't already have a decent rack, getting it now would be a great investment. You'll continue to benefit from it, of course, after any future upgrades, so I'd say go for it. Your gear will sound way better than it would on a TV rack!

Is it Fraim, or Fraim Light? Full Fraim is arguably overkill for a 202/200.

I'm not really qualified to judge the point at which full Fraim becomes a justifiable investment - I'm sure someone will chip in with an opinion! Or you could ask your dealer to dem some gear on the 2 racks and see for yourself.

The Fraim is well worthwhile with a 202/200. If the price is right, go for it. 

I'd be wary, though, of getting the 202/200 if you are already thinking of upgrading next year. I'd save those pennies and go directly to what you want, or you'll only lose a lot of cash when you do a trade in or try to sell privately. I get the horrible feeling that your dealer sees you as some sort of goldmine, on whom to palm off overpriced ex demo kit. I'd be looking for a new dealer.