Brahms symphonies

Hi EJ,

a strong recommendation for Günther Wand. OK, not soundwise - but he was a specialist for the great german composers.  

Hanno

My favorite set of Brahms Symphonies is Abbado Berlin on DGG.  The quality of the recordings is outstanding and the readings have a beautiful symmetry.  These are big, lush performances that feature unusual clarity in the inner lines.  Highly recommended.

I recommend Klemperer.

BBM

My favourite performances are those under Klemperer with the Philharmonia, and then Boult a decade or so after with the LPO and LSO (in the Third). But the Boult recordings have disappeared from the catalogue. So Otto Klemperer would have the field to himself: early Walter Legge produced stereo recordings.

That said, Sergiu Celibidache's  Stuttgart recordings are magnificent, although I think that DG may have discontinued them.

I believe that Rattle has recorded them with his Berliners, but Abbado's set with the Berliners before Rattle took over (mentioned above) gets high praise, so that may be the modern set to go for.

Graham 

I second the two immediate posts above.

Another deleted set that is worth its weight in gold is the 1954 Boult LPO set for Pye [now owned by EMI], and this set is among my favourite music making in Brahms. This is most unlikley to see the light of day again however. I have a set of the extremely short lived CDs that Pye released in the Nixa series, just before they ceased trading and EMI bought them out. Very doubtful that EMI would compete with themselves by offering Boults HMV stereo set and his mono Pye set. Both are fine, but in 1954 Boult was on occasion a very fiery - almost Toscanini-like - conductor, and this fire has its advantage in Brahms, though my reaction to Toscanini's take on the music at more or less the same time [early fifties] in London - see below for more thoughts - is that Boult manages to integrate the fiery aspects completely, whereas with Toscanini perhaps there is not enough ability to reflect quietly on occasion. I must empasis that this is a personal reaction. These concerts have become legendary ...

I see the older Boult set, only three years older than Klemperer's EMI cycle, as being the the perfect counterpart to Klemperer's wonderful performances. Both great interpretations, and bringing out different facets of the music. I would not be without either.

Also worth considering is the cycle recorded for CBS [now on Sony] with the CBS SO conducted by Bruno Walter. A serene vision without the visceral energy of Klemperer or Boult, but an interpretation that brings out many beauties and felicities, and avoids the slow tempi of many more modern performances than these from three great Brahmsians of several generations ago now.

As a different vision one may consider Arturo Toscanini in a unique pair of concerts [as the only times he conducted the Philharmonia in London. I believe, as a very old man] in the Royal Festival Hall - issued on Two CDs from Testament. Quite extra-ordinary performances, which are certainly visceral in their impact. I suggest them as they are something every Brahms admirer should hear at least once! Whether they make a good recommendation is more difficult. People never "quite like" these. Either the response is that these are revelatory, or simply over-driven and verging on the unsympathetic. I fall into the second category to some extent, but would never dismiss the possibility that someone else may find them possibly uniquely great. Certainly they should be heard at least once!

ATB from George

All,

Many leads to follow-up already, thanks for that.

- Rattle/Berlin - I wasn't planning on buying blind but Amazon offers the complete Rattle/Berlin for under GPB 9 so I took a gamble and went ahead.

- Abbado / Berlin seems available but expensive. The local library has a copy, fortunately.

- Klemperer, Walter, Toscanini and Boult firmly fall in the 'vintage' category - unique documents which compromise on sound. I may follow-up later.

- Wand is the big surprise here - I know him from his Bruckner but he did record the complete Brahms with the Stuttgart forces. Also expensive, but will track from now on.

- Nobody has mentioned Levine, Bernstein, Von Karajan or Giulini. Out of favor or unknown? How about the new guys like Daniel Harding?

Apologies if I appear too quick to judge here - hope to get round to all of these eventually.

Cheers,

EJ

Dear EJ,

When one finds a good recorded performance or four - I have Weingartner [made from unobtanium], 1939/41 on HMV, Boult from 1954, Klemperer, 1957, and Walter from 1960-ish. Only the Weingartner has remotely limited sonics, as Wartime recording did take a dip from the efforts before hostilities for some reason, and Boult is also in mono, but is very fine - then the need to keep collecting ever more recordings does tend to evapourate!. No need to fear for the recording quality with Boult, Klemperer or Walter, but the truth is that with these as wide ranging benchmarks of a certain sort, then the radio and concerts more than keep me fresh with the music!

Now in asking for recommendations, it is simply that those who most appreciate the recordings of Bernstein and the others you mention have not piped up. The continued availablity of these recordings speaks for their quality, and as ever the only way to really find out is to listen to them. You may be a Levine, or Bernstein style Brahmsian! Nought wrong with that, even if I am not!

I very rarely post directly about something I am less than completely enthsiastic about, though my thoughts on Toscanini above do indicate that I have an open mind about others enjoying certain things more than I do!

ATB from George

Hi George,

Your open mind and attitude on this forum is an example for all, not to mention that your knowledge of Klemperer provides for particularly good reading. 

For me, it's not about collecting all the great performances - at least, not in symphonic music - but finding a recording of Brahms where the conductor's / producer's priorities match my own. This music has been frustrating in that I know what the music can do, and so few recordings manage to get it right - in view of my particular tastes.

But, already some great leads here to follow-up on. I will add Klemperer to the list, and hope that I can find a pre-Greatest Recording of the Century master (The engineer(s) overseeing this series should have their ears checked for ruining many perfectly fine earlier remasterings).

Off topic: I personally feel James Levine belongs to the most underrated conductors in recorded history, even though he has built a huge discography over the years. He shares this fate with Jeffrey Tate, Giuseppe Sinopoli and, to a lesser extent, Colin Davis. 

EJ

I am well aware of the fact that we all appreciate different things. In the classical repertoire, I have three priorities. They are performance, performance, and  performance. Roughly in that order. I learned long time ago, that sonics matter least when evaluating the merits of a recording. But that's just me.

The catalogues are brimming with new, sonically impressive recordings that have no soul. The old masters from the golden age of classical recording seem to have something special to say. At least for me.

Maybe I need to get my ears/head checked, but I don't think so...

BBM 

Dear EJ,

I never expected to see anyone else mention Tate. To say the least he is a hero conductor of mine! So few recordings and they are pure gold!

I never forget the wonderful Sinopoli time with the Philharmonia in London, where the radio broadcasts from London's Royal Festival Hall were a sure guarantee of great musical pleasure, and as for Colin Davis, well you should see who the most populous conductors are in my music collection. Sure, Klemperer, Boult, Barbirolli, and the other greats, but Davis is a great - was a great forty years ago - and his work is represented at every turn in my favourite recordings. An amazing musican.

Best wishes from George

PS: I also have special needs with Brahms. Not all recordings steer clear of being dull in this music for me. A great recording in a technically fine performance can be dreadful for me. Brahms goes best in concert, and it seems to that few conductors can bring the sweep of a live Brahms performance to the studio and be convincing. I think it was a Dutch Music critic who commented that Klemperer did not conduct the music, but the music conducted him! It did not much seem to matter whether he was in the studio or leading a concert, in his good days he would leave the Earth and enter the Cosmos with a composer like Brahms. Of course not every day was a great one for Klemperer, but it seems that his Brahms cycle is one of those un-alloyed Cosmic experiences. Not a foot wrong, though he finds a monumentality in the Third that is simply unparalleled. The First is madly trenchant from the first note to the last, the Second is serene!

And the Fourth has the weight of Tragedy weighing down on the emotions in a way that denies the possibility of really concentrating on the [very fine] detail but being swept to the end exactly as a great live performance can do!

Hi BBM,

No need to preach to the choir. Given a choice between a good performance in bad sound or a bad (soulless, as you put it) performance in good sound, I would go for the former and I suspect all readers of this thread will feel the same way. However, I learned a long time ago that given a good performance, a good recording (like good sound in a venue) is much more than just the icing on the cake.

Cheers,

EJ

Hi George,

It seems we have a lot in common where our musical preferences lie. I feel pretty sure about recommending Haitink to you if you don't already know him, you might be surprised. I'll try Klemperer, and if there's anything good about Rattle I'll let you know!  

Cheers,

EJ

Let me know about Rattle. He was for years our local boy with the CBSO [I live in Worcester, less than an hour by car or train from the Symphony Hall in Birmingham], and I have attended enough of his concerts to have a view!

I hope that his Brahms is grand, because in his CBSO days he seemed to avoid it almost completely!

ATB from George

PS: Haitink used to be great on the radio with the LPO in the old days. Gosh we had some great broadcasting before Radio Three went populist!

EJ,

I was merely stating my preference regarding performance vs. sonics. I agree that if one can have both, that's even better. We are on the same page here. The Klemperer set is in fine sound; nothing to detract from the wonderful performance(s) in that set. Enjoy.

BBM 

I have the Bernstein set and still play it often, especially the second symphony. It works for me, but I am aware that not everybody shares my view. I recently heard a live performance of the first, and part (but not all) of my disappointment could have been due to it not sounding like Bernstein.

Dear Mike,

The risk of having a very favourite recording of favourite music is that the performance can come to form your idea of the music in a way that can make it hard to enjoy the music played by another musician or orchestra.

I used to have the Menuhin/Bath Festival Orchestra recording of Bach's Brandenburgs, and wore out two sets of the LPs before really encountering different performances. I realised my mistake in 1985 when I listened to a radio broadcast from the Queen Elisabeth Hall in London with Hans Martin Linde and the Linde Consort. Fortunately I taped the concert, and was able to listen many times to this entirely different presentation of the music. The result was that I went out and bought Pinnock's recording, and found some difficulty enjoying the live Linde tape or the Pinnock for a while, till I unlearned the Menuhin set. But it taught me to make sure that really important music for me should be enjoyed in several performances, contrasted in performing style, so that the music remains the main thing, rather than exactly who is playing it. I have several favourite conductors, violinists pianists and so on, so though I have quite a few doublings or more in my favourite pieces of music, the artists' roster in my collection is narrower than the list of composers! I know very well the approach that typifies each, and their range of expressive style, so that the differences found in each performance becomes a wonderful opening up of my appreciation of a wide range of interpretations ... Very rewarding in terms of keeping the music fresh for me, even from recordings.

Each performance will bring out a different set of facets in the music, and each will enhance the enjoyment of the others! And live concerts will be immediately enjoyed for their difference rather than similarity to the recordings you know well.

That is why I reckon anything up to four [some would say more] performances of favourite music, is not just a luxury, but very good for enjoying the music.

ATB from George

George,

I assume you are talking to me.  I'm going to order the Rattle/Berlin/Brahms for that exact reason.

Dear Mike [E],

I wasn't talking directly to you, but rather replying to Mike Roberts in the post just above mine.

But you perhaps do agree with the sentiments in my replay for all that?

Best wishes from George

Dear George

I agree with your comments on multiple recordings. The interpretation was only partially to blame on this occasion (I said so in the post), the inability of the strings to play together was a bigger factor. As I'd not hear the orchestra or conductor before, or been in that venue, it took me a while to pinpoint the problem.  There are many multiple recordings in my CD collection, preference comes down to interpretation and quality of performance, and sometimes quality of recording. There are many times that I've come away from a concert having heard a familiar piece in new clothing, and felt all the better for it. 

Best from Mick (not Mike)

Best from Mick (not Mike)

Sorry for getting your name wrong.

ATB from George

PS: There have been concerts that I attended that led me to listen to a recording on arriving home - to be sure that I was not being unduly harsh in my reaction to the concert performance! Sometimes things go not so well in concert ...

George, I find you to be a rude prick.  No wonder you are alone and embittered.  I will be sure to ignore you in future.  You are a caustic moron.

I'd second the recommendation for Wand i.e. for his Brahms cycle from the mid 80s with the North German Radio Symphony Orchestra (NDR). Did he record another cycle in Stuttgart?

And there is a very good 1st symphony with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

KR

Jochen

It looks as though Mr Eschman's forgotten to take his pills again!

Still, at least we've established that the software that censors S****horpe allows "prick".