Ditto - the big guns seem to steal all the limelight

Karl

Mike

I have read some idiotic comments from you in the past, but this latest one tops them all.

BBM

Appalling behaviour -  I believe not only George but  members of this forum deserve an apology.

Others may pass this off lightly but I find it offensive.

Karl

There are some great single symphony issues of the four from Brahms. To be nostalgic, I remember wearing out a brown album of five HMV 78s of Bruno Walter with the VPO in the First Symphony on a mid-thirties recording which rivalled Toscanini, Weingartner, and Boult for sagacity, propulsion, and energy, whilst retaining Walter's amazing ability to let the music "sing!" I have since found out that this is regarded as legendary, and that it has been issued breifly on on CD by EMI.  

Another is the even rarer recording of the Second by George Enescu from the late forties. Sadly I have never heard ths one. Decca recording I believe, re-issued on CD by Dutton. If George Enescu could be persuaded into the studio it was because he loved and understood the music, and everything that I have heard of his recordings is priceless.

Then there is the phenomenal Carlos Kleiber recording of the Fourth on CD from DG with the VPO. Such a wonderful reading of the music, and so perfect [I had the LP and have the CD] from the point of view of excecution that one can hardly believe it, and a performance to return to often.

But for the Third, even in the studio rather than live, I cannot help but think that Klemperer's 1957 Philharmonia recording [EMI] has yet to be ecclipsed.

ATB from George

PS: [EDIT]: I hope that Mr Eschmann has exited permenently "stage left, after this, and hopefully no more need ever be said about him. [Personally I hope he resigns his membership or is formally banned - better people have been banned for far less]. However thanks for the observations about his unseemly behaviour, for which there is surely some reason not related to the forum. It is not his first unruly outburst, and before he has apologised for such, but his failure in this instant perhaps is too much to have hoped for.

I just went to the Brahms Requiem at LA Phil and Dudamel conducting.  It was wonderful. I'd never heard it before.  I'd had a blissful week house sitting in Santa Barbara then went into 5 days with both of my folks in emergency one after the other and making some intense decisions.  Getting to this performance was important.  I didn't care for reading the supertitles so I closed my eyes and let it sweep me into another realm of gorgeous and dark music.  Absolutely wonderful.

You are very fortunate to have that wonderful conductor and orchestra available to you. I have heard many good things about Dudamel on CBC radio up here in Canada.

BBM

There are a couple of great Brahms symphony cycles. If you like an interpretation geared towards reaching significant climaxes I'd say the Leonard Bernstein recordings with the Vienna Philharmonic are the ones to investigate.

More stately and measured are Carlo Maria Giulini's recordings with the same orchestra. I'd say Giulini's 3d is one of the best recordings, and his 2nd is great, too.

Thirdly the Bavarian Radio Orchestra needs to be mentioned, conducted by Raphael Kubelik, one of the unsung greats of the 2nd half of the 20th century. This 3cd is on Orfeo.

It's true Haitink is a great Brahms conductor. After the Amsterdam Concertgebouw cycle he recorded the same with the Boston and then with the LSO.

If a listener wants the significant climaxes reached with precision and clinched with full power, then no finer exponent [in any of the symphonies] will be found than in Otto Klemperer, but do expect a patient approach ... Not slow in tempo, but not even remotely coming early. In reality not the music making of a young man or one even that had grown past the ability to commune in cosmic terms ...

There are more powerful readings on record, such as Carlos Kleiber in the Fourth, but few that, as a cycle consistently more come home to the listener with total conviction.

And Klemperer's Third remains a benchmark that has not been convincingly equaled. No one has managed his balance of the first subject group with the second [in the Finale] so satisfactorily - not one hint of a tempo change and yet so forward moving - yet the whole performance is so full of the necessary short term flexibility to allow the music to fully emote. In reality the first subject group is daringly fast, so that the second subject group is presented as if is a natural progression [which it is of course] and thus the Finale is the clinch as it should be. Such major considerations abound in Klemperer's cycle, and the many instances of the great old man's sagacity make this the "cycle" to presume a first recommendation, with added other cycles and individual performances to add to the understanding ...

ATB from George

[Still unable to make this last paragraph into normal unbold  text, sorry]

For you. you are clearly very attached to the Klemperer recordings, even in composers for whom Klemperer's rather slow and ponderous approach is inappropriate (Tchaikovsky). However there are people who find Klemperer offputting.

In the case of Brahms, K's recordings do speak of an era when Brahms was still regarded as the hard, dour, pessimistic, 'watch the theme' composer, while Brahms' lyrical, tuneful, happy aspects were de-emphasized.

Herman

Dear Herm,

Certainly this Third is fairly serious, but slow it is not. The performance builds architecturally towards the Finale, and I have never heard this movement taken so powerfully. It starts faster than any performance that I have heard, so that the first subject group is totally integrated with the second subject which usually involves a real gear shift upwards in tempo! Klemperer's architectural approach and integration of tempi means that for once the whole movement grows in power towards a clinch that is of unique power. The development section is amazing as presented, off beats and all!

Of course any individual listener has his own opinion about preferred readings, and I happen to have had a good deal of great music initially opened up for me by Klemperer's recordings. But as you can see, I don't solely advocate Otto Klemperer's recordings, even in this thread.

I only offer my opinion because of the great insights and pleasure that I have found in the music making of various conductors, and often it has been Klemperer who has introduced me to a love of specific pieces of music. It is certainly true for me that I have subsequently become disenchanted with almost no recording of his.

One major failure of a recording to involve me from Klemperer was his famous and critically praised Saint Matthew Passion set. It held back my enjoyment and appreciation of this music's multiple facets for a good ten years. When I sold my LPs in 1992, I replaced the set with the CDs from Gustav Leonhardt, and the piece suddenly became a source of tremendous inspiration for me. Though Leonhardt's performance is slightly slower overal, it seemed to move forward more! The length of the music no longer mitigated against listening right through in one go!! Subsequently I also added the 1947/8 [premiere complete recording - though there is s slightly cut earlier recording from Leipzig forces] Jacques performance using the Elgar Atkins Edition [very good and full of HIP correctness as well, which is amazing for an 1890s edition], and which sets the text in English very sympathetically.

But it is all opinion, and Klemperer's music making is rarely light of heart!

ATB from George

PS: I did not intend to make bold the comment above about Klemperer. I was unable to edit it down to normal unbold text. Sorry for that, because it gave undue and unintended emphasis to my comment. 

George I always learn good things from you, I'll have to put the Kelemperer on my list for Amoeba run.

Who are your top recommendations for that Requiem? I'd get it on CD because I don't want to get up to flip disks.

Dear Wolf,

I think you may guess about whom I have playing the Brahms Requiem. Fischer Diskaw and Schwarzkopf are the estimable soloists! It fits nicely onto one CD ...

There is a wonderful recording with Karajan from 1948 as well. I hope others will point out their favourites as well.

ATB from George

Hi George,

Hope all is well with you. Inspired by this thread, I ordered a complete set of Brahms symphonies with Jochum/BPO on DG. It's mono from the fifties. Have you heard these recordings, and do you have any comments? Thanks in advance!

BBM

Dear BBM,

I have heard some Jochum in mono from the fifties though not the Brahms you mention, but he was a great musician at a time when great musicians just seemed to grow on trees! I really enjoy his music making, and can heartily recommend his set of the Twelve Haydn London Symphonies [also on DG] with the LPO in early seventies stereo recordings. But in anything from the central Austro-German repertoire Jochum was a real master.

Let us know how you get on with Jochum's Brahms, when you get them, please!.

I reckon this is one of the best classical Music Room Threads for ages!

ATB from George

and, of course, Jochum's Bruckner is major stuff, both his Berlin, his Bavaria and his very late, glorious Concertgebouw live recordings on Tahra.

Hi George,

What a coincidence! I happened to order the Jochum/LPO set of "London" symphonies just the other day. I have the Davis recordings, which I really like. It will be interesting to compare the two sets. As for the Jochum/BPO set of Brahms symphonies, I will certainly let you know what I think. They are coming via "snail mail" from the U.S., so it will take a while for them to arrive.

BBM

I have the Jochum/BPO Brahms set, which is very good indeed. I didn't recommend it to EJ earlier, as it's in mono and thus didn't meet one of his criteria. 

I think that anyone listening will enjoy them, nonetheless. It was still the orchestra that Furtwaengler had moulded, before the changes HvK made to the sound.

Dear Graham,

I used to have the set of Furtwangler led Brahms symphonies that EMI issued from the Vienna and Berlin Radio tapes [from 1949 to 1952], and apart from the non-too-gentle accoustic of the Titania Palast [a converted cinema as the Philharmonie had been beed finally destroyed by bombs in 1945] these recording do represent a very high water mark in their interpretitive intensity.

The BPO and VPO styles [First Symphony in Vienna] are unmistakably that of WF, and quite a contrast with the way at least the BPO went with Karajan. There is nothing safe or smooth with Furtwangler. After a while I found these performances just that bit too cooked, but others will get pleasure from them I am sure. The orchestras sound so glorious in spite of the recordings that one is grateful for the chance to have the privelege to listen to these "unique" styled performances.

They make a fascinating contrast with the rugged clarity of Klemperer, and the song-like splendour of Walter, and Furtwangler certainly does not indulge in slow tempi such as in some of his Beethoven performances, even from the 1930s.

The caveat is the dynamically limited sonics, and the alarmingly close recordings.

ATB from George

PS: I would bet the Jochum set is grand, and there is another set from the fifties that is also worthy of attention [on Testament] with the Furtwangler style BPO. That of Rudolf Kempe, recorded by EMI. some mono and some stereo among these, though the mono is so fine that the stereo is not more sonically impressive in my view. The recordings are first rate and Testament has done a superb restoration on them. I had this set as well at one time. I suppose I prefer the lean clarity of Boult [LPO Pye Records] and the extreme though less lean precision of musical balance of Klemperer for all that.

Found this set waiting for me in the office today, and having come home at 11 after a long day enjoying it with a cognac. I'm not in a critical mood, but in the 1st I'm hearing here a lot of what I enjoyed so much when I heard Simon Rattle live with the RPhO.

EDIT: the whole set is very, very good, and extremely addictive. Who knew?

Cheers,

EJ

I have the Rattle and Harnoncourt. The Rattle is big and lush when compared to the Harnoncourt. The latter is much more detailed and dynamic to my ears and so is the one I like best. Harnoncourt seems to bring out the comlexities and I find the recording more exciting. I am aware though that it's a matter of taste and many people will prefer the Rattle.

Has anyone heard the Mackerras with the SCO?

all the best

SJ

Well, my set of Brahms symphonies by Jochum/BPO have arrived. I am very impressed indeed. Fine musicianship coupled with what can only be described as a deep love for Brahms' works. I had high hopes for this set, which I can say have not only been met, but exceeded by some stretch. The sound is excellent mono, so George, here's a big "heads up". Graham, you really nailed it with your description of these fine recordings. Thanks.

BBM

Jochum went back to Berlin some two decades later to record Brahms' two piano concertos with Emil Gilels and the BPO. Also available as a two-CD set in DG's Originals series, these are startlingly good, with a much fuller stereo sound than DG achieved in the symphonies. 

Graham

I have the recording of which you speak. It certainly is worthy of all the praise that has been heaped upon it. I also have the two Brahms piano concertos recorded by Ashkenazy/Haitink and Brendel/Abbado. I am not sure which I prefer to be honest, but each of them is very, very fine.

I have no musical training, but I certainly have come to appreciate "Classical" and jazz above all other genres. I cannot explain this. Maybe it's just what comes with age and overexposure to mainstream pop/rock etc. Over the years, I have relied on various guide books and advice gleaned from knowledgeable friends, to build a nice collection of recordings. Time well spent...

BBM