Is PRaT better with Vinyl?

"completely different animal" is for me the right definition.

I cannot say one is always better than the other (i have a NDX and a RP10), but really different for sure.

On my NDX the sound is wide (very wide) with lots of air between instrument and very detailed (would call it "digital sound"). In the other hand, on the RP10, the sound is a bit narrow but lot more subtle in mid and low frequencies.The instrument sounds "real" in term of pressure and tone.

So would define my NDX replay as like in a theater in row starting at 25 and with RP10 at 10

Ndx sound "have fun" and RP10 "keep quiet and be connected to your emotion"

Cheers 

I suspect you are hearing the effects of the RIAA frequency gain equalisation in the phono preamp. Here are bass is boosted significantly to match the reduced bass modulation when the vinyl master is cut.. (This is all part of the vinyl construction and reconstruction filter process). As a consequence often vinyl can sound more punchy in the bass due to eq reconstruction errors. Some people I suspect relaye this to PRaT.

Simon

Not punchy at all...unless the source has punchy bass or the speakers get too close to the wall for me.

What I'm trying to get to is the source itself, and the grooves with the spinning record (assuming constant rpm), controls the timing of the music. 

With digital this is a stored timing that  is interpreted correct?

Both are ending up going into a Nait XS (solid state)...one from a DAC, other from a phono stage.  So I assume the signal is digital while inside the XS, but becomes analog again.

The two input signals should be very different though...I'm new to this so just thinking it through as to why it would be so, but I hear all the time you guys talking about the DAC re-timing the music, etc.

SS,

Some DACs are better at PRaT than others, as could also be said of TT, cartridge, etc.  Perhaps your DAC does not time as well as your vinyl rig?  I would hesitate to generalize.  But I am interested in others experiences, which was the thrust of this thread...

Charlie

Hi Sneaky

I'm not so sure that vinyl is automatically faster sounding (i.e. has more PRaT) than digital.

My own experience would suggest that it depends on the specific source that you are using e.g. make & model of turntable, CD player or streamer, than on the type of source.

I once auditioned an Audio Research Reference CD8 CD player, a very well regarded, very positively reviewed CD player that retailed for circa £10k in the UK, so not exactly poor or cheap.  I found myself looking at the watch, waiting for the next notes to arrive in case they were going to be on time (which they never were).  

I've also owned a Naim CDX2/555PS and it's like being towed along behind a very fast ski boat. Fast as you like; an addictive, wild ride too!

Equally, I've tried Nottingham Analogue turntables (3 different ones but not the Dias or Anna Log) and always found the bass lines to be towed along shortly after voices and lead instruments.  Superbly resolved fine detail, but slow.  Whereas Rega, Roksan and especially Vertere all emphasise the importance of correct timing in their design priorities.

The little Naim DAC-V1 on the end of a 2012 mac mini sounds absolutely spot on in the current set up, yet when I used an expensive audiophile USB cable, basslines were slow, late & lumpy.  Awful in fact.

So you are blessed with a turntable that times well.  Perhaps this is what your ears are telling you?

I'm suggesting that regardless of the turntable, assuming a fairly constant rpm, the record itself would provide a timing more true to the music than a DAC playing a digital file and more continuous as well.

The digital reading of the data file must use a reasonable time increment, where the record uses infinitely small time increments...maybe I've been up coding too late.  Add to that I have no clue what I'm talking about.

But for the sake of simplicity...think of everything before any pre/power amp...the "instrument" signal if you will.  I know there's line level, and instrument level right?

192kHz digital gives far more accurate timing of transients than can be achieved using analogue vinyl replay.

Firstly, disks do not spin at constant speed,  The depth of modulation of the grove presents a variable drag to the system and when this increases the platter slows slightly.

Second, minor errors in the RIAA equalisation will cause minor changes in the phase of the reconstructed signal, and at low frequency this can be in millisecond time-scales.

Third, the temporal uncertainty of vinyl replay isn't infinately small, it's limited by the tip resonance of the stylus acting against the compliance of the vinyl

I'm with Foot tapper on this, it's not the mechanism but the quality of the signal produced by the mechanism that matters. Wow and flutter can really ruin a PRaT party. On the other hand, it may be the relentless regularity in a digital signal that is off-putting rather than the more "fuzzy" presentation of a turntable. As much as I love electronic music, the best drummers outperform drum machines any day despite drum machines having superior timing.

Sneaky - both vinyl and digital have absolute timing. Vinyl is determined by the velocity of the cartridge passing over the groove - which varies between the outside and inside of the disc, and digital which is the rate of the samples - albeit this is constant.

Therefore both formats can equally 'capture' timing in the music or not... The timing we refer to when listening to music is often I feel subjective and can be determined in many ways. Some music its easy to pick up on the timing - ie music to dance to or move you - other music can have complex timing that is fascinating to hear - some modern classical music, avante garde music, some complex folk/world music and some modern jazz.

A good system will allow these nuances to come through - whether they be dynamics or clarity of sound. A coloured or flat system will make it harder to pick out the timing (at least in my experience). I don't see this has much if any to do with the constant sample timing (PCM) or variable cartridge velocity of analogue amplitude modulation (AM)

Simon

SS just love man. Get that goove moving and dance. Love the vinyl love the digital just love music.

I think Sneaky may be on to something but not such that it should take his life over.   I like a good groove me and last night was listening to Gaucho on vinyl and was struck by just how Hey Nineteen was well - fluid is the word I use.  Now I could have gone out to the car and got the CD version but I never do vinyl vs CD comparison - life is too short just accept that both are brilliant.

I suspect though more than the playback medium it's more to do with the performance - the musicians/producers/engineer etc either enable an absorbing listen or something that is less entertaining regardless of it being on vinyl or digital.

''No Sugar Tonight'' on vinyl was released in 1970 and is a pure AAA album where recording, mixing and mastering was done with analog equipment. I have found that many old AA recordings that were released on CD sound harsh and grainy, probably due to the first generation of A/D converters.  

Sneaky, if you want better PRaT with your digital replay, you need to get a DAC with green lights.

Yep, I agree. I think it took a little while to come to terms with the hard ceiling on digital gain, too. I had one early AAD album (Court and Spark) that definitely clipped in an extremely harsh and grating way. A later version I own now doesn't suffer from this and sounds pretty good.

The physical speed of mechanical replay is nowhere near as accurate as that of digital.

What you are experiencing is analogue artifacts as opposed to digital artifacts.

The "fact" is that so called PRAT is a perception and does not exist in any objective sense.

I agree that PRaT is not so much determined by the kind of timing precision discussed above, and that it is at least somewhat subjective.  To be honest, though, I struggle to define "PRaT" and I'm not sure that my version of "PRaT" is the same as everyone elses.  

There are surely differences in digital replay vs vinyl that have nothing to do with PRaT.  Vinyl rigs introduce a host of vibrations and modest "ringing" which (in a good rig) are musical in nature and can enhance some music with a certain exuberance.  These vibrations could be considered timing errors, yet one might percieve the PRaT to be undiminished (or even enhanced?).  

Digital music is subject to distortions of a very unnatural, non-musical nature, in varying degree, even when the PRaT might be considered very good.

Charlie

Drummers are my absolute favorite!

Lately my system has reached a point where I will hear a section of music and simply stand up...start air-drumming--strutting around the room like a chicken.  I know that something is different in this way, because I never plan to do this and always ask myself:  "Wtf are you doing?"  Then I get a little embarrassed, finally remembering I'm alone in my room except maybe for my wife who is laughing at me.

On the other hand I use digital now to put myself to sleep.

Wait until you try Rega's external motor controller on the RP3...

My personal experience with the Rega DAC is that is can sound different depending on the quality of the source.  

When I had my DAC being fed from my Squeezebox Touch Digital, or from Musical fidelity V-link i felt like it lacked a bit if PRAT. This lead me to get a UnitiQute (and just use it as a source).

On a lark i hooked up the Rega DAC to the Digital Output of the qute so i could AB on my integrated amp.  I could tell no real difference between the DACs. 

Isn't that what we all do?

It sometimes reminds me of when I was 18 dancing with some random honey

lovin it.

Just love this post. 

I have a  printer with a green light, and its a DAC...but it doesn't help my PRaT.

Sound engineering should probably not be ignored in this argument. From the bits I've read about recording rock music, drums are notoriously difficult to tame and achieve a tight, balanced sound to top to bottom (though it's routinely accomplished). Drums are typically the first instrument engineers want to get the sound "set" for in a recording. Video from the later Beatles recording sessions often show Ringo (even with his relatively diminutive drum kit) looking rather isolated in a corner of Abbey Road studios, surrounded by acoustic panels. Tracks on "The Best Of The Guess Who" track Sneaky is citing here are very well-recorded. I have that album on original vinyl and CD. Both have exceptional SQ and I've never sensed a difference in PRaT between the two. In fact, the CD seems to offer a blacker background which to me provides a bit more insight and depth to the recordings. 

An alternative experience to Foot tapper. I've owned a nottingham spacedeck with decca supergold for several years, then changed this to a lyra helikon SL and for coming up 4 years now a nottingham dais turntable, 12 inch ace anna arm and Lyra Titan i cartridge and I have never felt the nottingham decks as lagging in any way.

In fact I sold my spacedeck to a long term lp12 owner and he still runs the spacedeck and once compared my dais to a rega and the dais was so much better, to my ears at least.

This is of course compared regularly to an nds/555ps or in the spacedeck days the cdx2/555ps.

The icing on the cake for me were adopting the recommended lp12/lyra z foil superline loading  plugs for the dais.....lovely and still my reference source.

Agreed, FT. I won't go so far as to say it made my previous arrangement sound broken (wait, that's another thread), but the TTPSU did give things a very enjoyable bit of added "oomph". And I like me some oomph.