SuperUniti Speaker Cable...

Posted by: NotMyNaim on 02 October 2015

I'll be honest, I've had my SuperUniti for a couple of years now, and I've never been happy with it.  In the end, out of frustration more than hope for a solution, I took it in to my local Naim dealer with the aim of comparing it with their demo unit, to reassure myself there was nothing wrong with it.  This is what happened:

 
I took it into the Sound Gallery in High Wycombe and compared it directly with their demo unit - and the result was that my SU sounded at least as good as the demo unit - in fact it sounded a bit smoother, presumably because it’s been used more and has bedded in nicely.
 
I talked at length with Ronnie at the Sound Gallery about why it was that my unit sounded good at his shop, but not so good at home.  Initially the conclusion was that it must be the size/shape of my listening room at home - which is considerably larger than the demo room we were sitting in.
 
I remained a little sceptical, to be honest, but decided that there wasn’t much else to be done.  While I was with Ronnie, he also installed the latest firmware update, which I notice did include an update of the DAC.  Finally, just before I left, Ronnie asked me what speaker cables I was using at home.  I was using Chord Carnival Silverscreen.  Ronnie said he wasn’t keen on that cable and that Naim equipment needed something with a decent amount of copper in it - and he gave me something else to try (not even sure what it is, but it isn’t very expensive - £48 with terminals).  I know you’d say I should be using NACA5, but it’s very stiff and awkward to install neatly (not wife friendly) and, as I understood it, modern Naim kit isn’t fussy about cables.  
 
Well…  I don’t know if it’s the cable or the firmware update, but suddenly the SuperUniti has the bite, attack and weight that I’ve expected it to have from the start - honestly, I would never have believed that a cable could make so much difference - but it really is huge.  I can actually listen to the thing for hours now without being fatigued - in fact I look forward to listening to it, which is as you’d expect, but sadly hasn’t been the case until now.  The detail and life it’s pulling out of old 1970s recordings is extraordinary.
 
Maybe modern Naim kit is still a bit cable sensitive after all...?
Posted on: 05 October 2015 by SongStream
Originally Posted by gert:
What does all this mean for the sound? If the cable is too short or has wrong parameters, in which way the sound will suffer? Less bass, harsh treble, or something different?

Well, my cables violate the length recommendation, for one of the 'tolerant' amps (SN2), but other than that are probably fine I would think.  It sounds great, and not at all like anything is unhappy, or about to blow up........what was that bang?

Posted on: 05 October 2015 by hafler3o
Originally Posted by gert:
What does all this mean for the sound?

You are in a room with a hungry lion and 2.5m of NACA5. Do not question the sound!

 

The cable provides an alternative method of implementing the zobel network, so in short it's for amplifier stability. Replacing fuses with nails might do wonders for sound but what about safety?

Posted on: 05 October 2015 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by gert:
What does all this mean for the sound? If the cable is too short or has wrong parameters, in which way the sound will suffer? Less bass, harsh treble, or something different?

 

My own experience is that modern Naim amps are far more forgiving of speaker cable than some of the forum talk about speaker cables would suggest. My Supernait seems completely un-phased by its cable; it’s had NACA5, Chord and Kimber and few others, whereas my Nait-2 is audibly not happy with Kimber 8PR, it ran warm & sound harsh, but is OK with a parallel pair.

The problem as I understand it the output stage can become unstable & needs an inductive load to add stability.  Most amp makers install an internal inductor & live with the extra inductance added by the users speaker cable,  Naim choose to use specific speaker cable for the required inductance.

Posted on: 05 October 2015 by NotMyNaim
Originally Posted by gert:
What does all this mean for the sound? If the cable is too short or has wrong parameters, in which way the sound will suffer? Less bass, harsh treble, or something different?

In my case, the Chord Carnival Silverscreen cable was giving a bass light sound which was fatiguing to listen to for any length of time, switching to 79 strand has significantly improved the bass, and the overall bite, attack and presence of vocals and midrange generally.  I wasn't worried about safety (perhaps I should have been), but I wasn't happy with the sound - now I am.

 

I reckon if you're happy with the sound - don't mess with it!

Posted on: 05 October 2015 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by hafler3o:
The cable provides an alternative method of implementing the zobel network, so in short it's for amplifier stability. 

Hi hafler3o,  a minor point,  the inductance of the cable or an internal inductor is not a zobel. 

All solid state power amplifiers - including Naim - have a Zobel network across the output stage.. A conventional Zobel circuit consists of a series capacitor & resistor with values around 100nF and 10 Ohm. The capacitor begins to conduct as frequency rises and the 10 ohm resistor becomes the damping element shunting the circuit Q.

With a typical speaker load the Zobel circuit alone may be ineffective. This is commonly solved by placing an inductor in series with the amplifier output downstream from the Zobel shunt circuit,  or as in Naim applications (& others) it is done with the inductance properties of the speaker cable.

Posted on: 05 October 2015 by hafler3o
Originally Posted by Mike-B:
Originally Posted by hafler3o:
The cable provides an alternative method of implementing the zobel network, so in short it's for amplifier stability. 

Hi hafler3o,  a minor point,  the inductance of the cable or an internal inductor is not a zobel. 

All solid state power amplifiers - including Naim - have a Zobel network across the output stage.. A conventional Zobel circuit consists of a series capacitor & resistor with values around 100nF and 10 Ohm. The capacitor begins to conduct as frequency rises and the 10 ohm resistor becomes the damping element shunting the circuit Q.

With a typical speaker load the Zobel circuit alone may be ineffective. This is commonly solved by placing an inductor in series with the amplifier output downstream from the Zobel shunt circuit,  or as in Naim applications (& others) it is done with the inductance properties of the speaker cable.

I should have said 'completes the zobel' ! It was stated that with the specified length of NACA5 it would be like 'no cable' existed, the amp would be connected direct to the speaker. Obviously I am not in possession of all the amp schematics but that used to be the stated rationale.

Posted on: 06 October 2015 by gert
I reckon if you're happy with the sound - don't mess with it!


This is the reason why I am asking. My uniti 1 plays with speakers Neat Motive One. And for my taste they miss a little bit of bass and have too much treble. But I can't remember the cable name. Except it is only 2x3m.
Posted on: 06 October 2015 by Richard Dane

Certainly type, length and how the cable is terminated can have an effect on the quality of sound.  I have found that NACA5 sounds a bit richer, weightier and sweeter if a longer length is used - around 5-7m per channel seems ideal.  However, poor termination or use of the wrong banana plug can add an edge of harshness and make the bass lose some of its bounce and weight.  So, always use the supplied Naim speaker connectors at the Naim amp end, well and properly soldered, and whatever plug matches best with the connectors on your speakers, again well and properly soldered.  If you have bi-wire speakers then lose the nasty metal links that come with them and replace with either link cables or flying leads off the speaker cables.

Posted on: 06 October 2015 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by Mike-B:
 

My own experience is that modern Naim amps are far more forgiving of speaker cable than some of the forum talk about speaker cables would suggest. 

 

 

I think the nub of the discussion is exactly this - that the amps in the Uniti series of products are more forgiving of other cables. 

 

This doesn't mean that they will sound the same across a wider range of cables - just that they will remain stable across a wider range of cables.

 

Every now and again I get complacent about wiring up systems 'quickly' for friends and just throw in other (usually bought because they're cheap and easily available) cables because 'it's only a short run' or because 'it's easier if I use something more flexible' and quite often end up with something that feels flat or turgid sounding ... 

 

NACA5 might be a bit of a swine to work with but it is a good solid cable that just does what it needs to do and sounds good and when you design an amplifier you do have to design it with something in mind for cables and speakers - even if you make that amplifier more tolerant of loads overall.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Posted on: 09 October 2015 by Fergi
Originally Posted by NotMyNaim:

I'll be honest, I've had my SuperUniti for a couple of years now, and I've never been happy with it.  In the end, out of frustration more than hope for a solution, I took it in to my local Naim dealer with the aim of comparing it with their demo unit, to reassure myself there was nothing wrong with it.  This is what happened:

 
I took it into the Sound Gallery in High Wycombe and compared it directly with their demo unit - and the result was that my SU sounded at least as good as the demo unit - in fact it sounded a bit smoother, presumably because it’s been used more and has bedded in nicely.
 
I talked at length with Ronnie at the Sound Gallery about why it was that my unit sounded good at his shop, but not so good at home.  Initially the conclusion was that it must be the size/shape of my listening room at home - which is considerably larger than the demo room we were sitting in.
 
I remained a little sceptical, to be honest, but decided that there wasn’t much else to be done.  While I was with Ronnie, he also installed the latest firmware update, which I notice did include an update of the DAC.  Finally, just before I left, Ronnie asked me what speaker cables I was using at home.  I was using Chord Carnival Silverscreen.  Ronnie said he wasn’t keen on that cable and that Naim equipment needed something with a decent amount of copper in it - and he gave me something else to try (not even sure what it is, but it isn’t very expensive - £48 with terminals).  I know you’d say I should be using NACA5, but it’s very stiff and awkward to install neatly (not wife friendly) and, as I understood it, modern Naim kit isn’t fussy about cables.  
 
Well…  I don’t know if it’s the cable or the firmware update, but suddenly the SuperUniti has the bite, attack and weight that I’ve expected it to have from the start - honestly, I would never have believed that a cable could make so much difference - but it really is huge.  I can actually listen to the thing for hours now without being fatigued - in fact I look forward to listening to it, which is as you’d expect, but sadly hasn’t been the case until now.  The detail and life it’s pulling out of old 1970s recordings is extraordinary.
 
Maybe modern Naim kit is still a bit cable sensitive after all...?

Try Chord Odyssey MK11, great base with Nait 5 I Mk2