The destabilising effect of Tidal

I can see how it would be an alternative method of pre purchase sampling but a substitute for buying digital music?

What will happen if you cancel your subscription, or the provider goes under, or the label/artist withdraws albums from those available to stream, as happens already?

Fair points, Harry, and those will have to be borne in mind In the final assessment. But I've only been playing with Tidal for the last four days and it's all new (and currently free). I'm very pleasantly surprised so far at least. 

I think it is a great service to have at your disposal but it isn't the big basket into which all the eggs can go. If they pull the plug you don't got no music - apart from what you have already on vinyl/CD. It's disposable but if priced low enough then useful. As long as it didn't become the defatco model for music delivery. 

Clive, Tidal (and the other lossless streaming services are great). However I still buy recordings I value as occasionally (with Qobuz at least) particular versions become unavailable which can be annoying. Also the services all offer FLAC and unfortunately WAV still sounds better with Naim equipment, and I haven't seen any software/proxy server software that transcodes..

Also, on CD you can be far more discriminating on the exact master and version, where as this can be vague online. However casual listening and discovery I agree the lossless music  on-demand services are fantastic. It's only taken about 22 years since I was part of a team building and delivering early trials of music and video ondemand services on private networks over neighbourhoods in East Anglia to come of age. (It was all MPEG 2 back then on fibre to the premise and first generation ADSL on experimental exchanges). Sometimes information technology moves surprisingly slowly in contrast to popular opinion.

Mmm... I do indeed fear this, which i suppose indicates that I'm not ready to give up the habit yet. 

I can easily give give up at any time, honest. I just don't want to.

I understand exactly where you're coming from

So does my wife - she's just looked in my Amazon shopping basket!

A mixture of a substantial library & subscription streaming is the very best of both worlds for me.

Streaming will survive. It just will.

G

It’s never a waste of time listening to Wagner, have you tried the new version of Das Rheingold conducted by Simon Rattle?

I'm not sure if it will become part of a complete Ring though.

I have been very impressed with Tidal and am starting to wonder what part it (or another CD quality streaming service) will play in my choice of source and listening habits long term.

A real replacement or alternative to buying CDs / downloading high res files? A better means (in SQ terms) of evaluating stuff before you invest in the download or CD? Simply a way of listening to some old stuff you used to like but was never motivated to buy? Listening to stuff recommended by others?

I have been listening to Tidal a lot recently - not sure if it is the novelty or it is starting to resonate with me as a real alternative (not replacement mind) to streaming rips or high res files. I have certainly loved reliving my youth by listening to stuff I loved as a student but got rid of. Remember back then I was listening on very poor kit so to hear this stuff at (near) CD quality on modern Naim kit is a revelation and rather wonderful as I would never have probably bothered to search out these CDs today.

However the SQ available from Tidal is not as good as a high res downloads and is not quite as good as a CD rip. I am also evaluating the Tital catalog and so far have been impressed with coverage in my preferred genres. There are however some gaps and I need to check further.

As they say, the jury is still out!

Why don't you just try iRadio?  It has been available on Naim streamers ever since and the sound quality of many stations is superb.

And is free for use.

I'm very happy with having a video service. If for some reason I am at a place where I do not have an internet connection (and sometimes I seek those places on purpose) I can easily live without the video service.

However, I cannot live without music. So, Tidal offers the opportunity to store local copies for offline use.

Is that sufficient? I'm also still out on that one. I don't buy cds anymore, or rather I like to avoid that as much. The waste of the materials just to transport that music to me is bugging me. However, I regularly buy digital files.

So far, it offers a slight better listening experience. Compared to the TIDAL stream, my own stream from my NAS sounds better: wider soundstage, more depth than the TIDAL stream, which is not bad at all. It is actually very good and completely enjoyable all day. 

I think I will buy less, except for 24 bit recordings which have been proven to be better than the 16bit CD quality.

Is it possible to save the local copy so that it can be played back on other devices, backed up, etc. As you would a download?

you can download offline on up to 3 devices. I do on my phone to use when on the plane (with a small external DAC / headphone amp it sounds fabulous!)

This is interesting. Thank you for that info.

Can you keep the copies for good?

That I am not sure about, what is more of an issue is (a) there is presumably a size limit and (b) even without a limit you cannot easily manage the collection (apart from Albums Playlists Tracks Artists view) 

Harry, As long as you keep up your subscription and Tidal don't pull the copy you can keep the copy on your device as far as I am aware.

Spotify allow you to do the same and I had a few albums on my phone for the 6 months or so I had the subscription.

If you cancel your subscription, it all disappears, kind of your point about streaming services if I'm not mistaken.

We are truly spoilt for choice these days though.

When I travel with work I normally download about 3 hours of Radio Paradise via their app for offline listening, a couple of programmes from BBC 6 Music (Huey and Cerys, both 3 hours long per programme) which can be also for offline listening via iPlayer Radio App, and then I have a shufty on Tidal for a few albums I fancy having a listen to.

Oh, and if I get bored I've always got my own music on my iPod!

I never have enough time to listen to it all.

Here's a really interesting article on the specific issues for classical listeners (and classical record labels) raised by the rise of streaming. I'm a convert to streaming but I'm not unaware of the dangers that it threatens for the (cottage) industry.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/fe...he-rise-of-streaming

So far this year I've purchased just one CD - Indianola Mississippi Seeds in memory of the late, great BB King. 

Tidal has killed off my CD buying habit. I started it as an experiment for 2015 to see if I could manage a year without any CD purchases - and I don't have a long list saved up for January. 

I'm very positive about the Tidal experience. If it was £15 per month rather than £20 and there were fewer annoying gaps in the catalogue I'd go so far as to say it is brilliant. 

I agree with Graeme streaming is here to stay. Yes it has it downsides, but so does the current model - the record companies decide what artists they sign and what discs they put out. In classical repetoire there is a vast catalogue of music never put out on CD, while there are endless versions of popular works. 

The industry will do what any consumer facing industry has to do and follow the money.  The challenge for Tidal is not to move old gits like us from CD but to persuade 20 somethings (who won't buy music on CD anyway) to upgrade from free low-res services. 

Olly

Thanks Dr and Chris. Interesting and I appreciate you taking the trouble to reply. 

Agreed, it is a numbers game and the subscription streaming industry (like any other) will be driven by money and the ability to make a reasonable profit. Which begs the question, will the younger generation be prepared to pay a premium for (and be able to appreciate with the kit they have - often only a smart phone) a CD quality (well almost) streaming service?

Of course this quality end of the streaming service industry is not solely reliant on the youngsters but they are the future. The problem is that 'free' music has been available for a while and cash-strapped youngsters have relied on these sources for some time now and seem to not be too concerned by sound quality. Of course I shouldn't generalise but this attitude that music should and can be free is an issue.

Only by demonstrating the benefit of high quality streaming services will enough be persuaded to pay a reasonable subscription. That will require many to upgrade their hardware (beyond a phone or iPod) to be able to hear the difference and appreciate the benefits of high quality streaming services. Maybe advances in (mobile) technology can assist here but when one witnesses the rather average quality of Apple's new streaming service, I don't think this advancement will happen anytime soon.

Sorry to end on such a pessimistic note!

Night night

Just curious to find out if anyone is using TIDAL via their desktop application in a hardwired setup i.e. Mac to DAC to Amp (so no network player or streamer) and achieving playback quality that is equal to or even better than a CD player?

There is also a 6 month subscription at a lower monthly rate but asks for upfront payment.  I'm no business analyst but there must be a couple of possibilities for TIDAL to just merge with the Google Play (only Chrome supports their hi-fi playback via web browser) or amazon prime music to remain in the game or be competitive.  Or Apple corp will finally make use of ALAC to stream CD quality in Apple Music.

It's almost 2 years since I started streaming CD quality audio, first with Qobuz and now Deezer Elite. I said to myself that I would stream to try before I bought. In that time my music purchases have dwindled to almost nothing. This year I have only made 2 purchases, one of which was a live recording of a concert I went to.

I have also observed that if I can't find something on my streaming service, it's almost as if it doesn't exist. I'll go and find something else to listen to. If my behaviour is replicated by others this could be especially hard for those classical labels who have decided to withdraw their recordings from streaming services. If a Hyperion recording of Mozart's Piano Sonatas isn't available most people will be happy with a Deutche Grammophon version.

@Goon525 the Gramophone article was interesting. Thanks for the link. In a similar vein Andy Doe had some very interesting things to say about streaming in general and classical streaming and distribution in particular, when he was a guest on the Committed Podcast* a few weeks ago.

Doe used to run the iTunes classical music department at Apple and recently advised the Berliner Philharmoniker on setting up their own label after they decided not to renew at Deutche Grammophon. It's well worth a listen because he's uniquely able to comment on both sides of the discussion.

*The Committed is a technology podcast, but presenter Kirk McElhearn is also a classical music reviewer at MusicWeb.