NDS and firmware 4.4

The only comments I have seen about improved SQ with the 4.4 firmware update are in this thread 

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...iti-and-4-4-firmware

so I suppose the answer to your question is a qualified "no"

best

David

It is a bit difficult to know whether there is any deliberate pre-planned effect in sound quality from changes in firmware unless Naim state it to be so. However, when I first had my NDS about six months ago I was most disappointed in the sound quality in that there was a pronounced treble brightness on some music (Alison Krauss or Joni Mitchell, for example), which made listening at other than modest volumes unpleasant, which had not been the case with CDS3. Firmware 4.3 seemed to be a huge improvement to the extent that I wondered whether in some way the original firmware had been corrupted. I also noticed a big improvement on my Superuniti.

I upgraded thie NDS to 4.4, and am enjoying the Tidal integration, but I find that the treble brightness has returned. Piano music, for example, sounds more metallic. Is it my imagination? I have not yet upgraded the SU and am wondering whether this would be wise, since I can get Tidal (or Qobuz, which I subscribe to at present) via my Apple TV.

As indicated above, it might all be in the imagination! 

There was another post a few days ago by someone who thought 4.4 was a sonic downgrade but I can't recall who it was.

As has been indicated previously, it is worrying if a firmware 'upgrade' can affect the sound quality and it makes a pre purchase demo a bit pointless. Wouldn't it be preferable to be able to revert to a previous firmware if there is a perceived adverse effect?

Isn't it possible to revert to a previous firmware? Why so? Under such conditions I can hardly imagine that people would agree to serve as beta testers. I very much hope that the upcoming firmware upgrade for the Naim DAC will support reverting. Best, nbpf

I'm not aware of any reduction in quality from 4.4. When we were beta testing I felt that 4.3 was a definite step forward, and 4.4 sounds the same to me. That said, some of the Tidal offerings are decidedly dubious soundwise, but upnp and radio sound just the same. A lot of work was done to ensure that sound quality only gets better, as when new features are added there can be impacts on existing functionality, both in the sound and the operation. 

Nbpf

Maybe you are right. I had thought, though, that it was not recommended by Naim, but perhaps I am mistaken.

It does mean you would have to retain the previous version update files unless Naim would send them to you.

I've been updating for the last year with the beta group, the SQ did make an improvement going to 4.3 & as far as my NDX & my ears are concerned, that has continued into the variations that eventually became the current 4.4.   Throughout the beta testing we have constantly critiqued the SQ & will continue to do so.  I see no reason to need to revert to previous revisions.    

I see a very obvious one: just in case, for whatever reason and despite careful beta testing, the new firmware does not meet my specific expectations or needs. What is better for the majority does not need to be better for everyone, does it? Best, nbpf

I did not say it wasn't possible .........  but whatever,  when the new nDAC software gets released then you can decide 

The different firmware update files are all available on Naim's support page.  But if I were contemplating going to downgrade to a previous firmware level I would definitely check with Naim Support first because these upgrades are multi-stage processes and downgrading by using the lower level firmware upgrade files might well tackle things in the wrong order, which could be a frustrating journey back to the place you wanted to revert from.

As Mike says, the SQ is constantly critiqued during the firmware development process and Naim won't sign for release anything that reduces sound quality.  Apart from the big ticket improvements, each upgrade normally would include a bunch of minor bug and other issue fixes. So it will usually be worth doing the upgrades for that reason alone.

best

David

Thanks for the tip, David. I had not realised the old releases were still there, so I can go back a stage, subject to a Naimcheck.

If it is do-able it means I can update the SU to see what the effect is and if I don't like it I can revert to the old version. I will leave the NDS as it is for the time being; although I have now done several updates I am always apprehensive until the unit is up and running again!

Thanks again

David, I have no doubts that beta testers are doing their best and I have no doubts Naim would not release anything that (according to their careful testing) would reduce the sound quality. I also agree that, in most (but not necessarily all) cases, it makes sense to upgrade.

Nevertheless, I consider it to be mandatory for a firmware upgrade to support reverting to the original state prior upgrade. This is because of at least three reasons.

First, if one has not been among the beta testers, there is no guarantee (and, in fact, a small probability) that one's specific system has ever been tested with the new firmare. Under these conditions, a fallback option is mandatory.

Second, firmware upgrades which aim at improving functionalities -- for instance, at supporting more streaming services -- by at least preserving sound quality should be expected to have minimal impacts on sound quality. This means that judgements on those (minimal) impacts on sound quality might well be matter of personal preferences or setup. Under these circumstances and assuming one was not interested in the enhanced functionalities, one must to be able, after a firmware upgrade, to revert to the original firmware if one wishes to do so.

Third, reverting to the pre-upgrade state should always be possible for testing purposes.

Notice that I am not arguing one should be able to revert, from a given firmware release, to any arbitrary previous release but just to the the immediately previous one. In other words, one should be allowed to (upgrade and) downgrade stepwise.

In a nutshell: the main advantage of software over hardware is flexibility. Undoing a hardware change can be difficult, expensive or even impossible. But undoing a firmware upgrade is the very minimum every firmware upgrade should supports. Non reversible firmware upgrades are just broken software.

Best,

nbpf

I noticed a definite SQ improvement with my NDX going to 4.3. I then moved to NDS with 4.3 installed so could not testify if this firmware update improved SQ with the NDS.

I was one who reported one second drop outs with 4.3 on the NDS streaming hi res files (DSD and 24/192) and have to say that updating to 4.4 has sorted that particular problem as promised. I also love the implementation of Tidal which I am enjoying greatly while evaluating it completely free of charge (well for 90 days anyway).

With regard to 4.4 and general SQ I have noticed no difference. So for me there are only upsides and no downsides with 4.4.

Should Naim facilitate reversion to a previous version - don't know. It just seems to be a retrograde step to me considering all the care Naim go to with beta testing and the commitment to improving SQ (or at least not going backwards in terms of SQ), removing known bugs and adding functionality with every update.

nigelb, why does it seem to you retrograde being able to undo a change? Do you see obvious disadvantages in being able to reverse a firmware upgrade? This is a very basic (in fact, as I argued, mandatory) functionality. It does not have whatsoever bearing on other functionalities. None does have to use it but some (a few, hopefully) can take advantage of it. If you rate the incapability of undoing changes as a value in itself, fair enough. But in this case you would probably consider welding your speaker cables to your power amp during speakers upgrade the normal upgrading procedure. I do not believe you do so, do you? Best, nbpf  

At first step, i was not happy with th efrimware 4.3 and asked naim service how to downgrade. Answer : It is not possible. Now i am very pleased with the 4.3 version but i will be very carefull in the future before installing a new firmware.

So why not install 4.4?  

Not including Tidal, it has fixes for the bugs that 4.3 carried.  

Synology -- do not support downgrading system OS.

Apple -- do not support downgrading from El Capitan to Yosemite.

Android -- do not support downgrading from Lollipop to KitKat.

I see a pattern developing . . .

This is very sad. Under these circumstances, a viable approach towards upgrading might be to:

1. Borrow a run-in device with the new firmware from your dealer

2. Test it in your replay system

3. If happy with the new firmware, upgrade your device

4. Bring the device (the one you borrowed) back to your dealer

This is certainly not user-friendly and is not really a solution (one would still not be able to later revert one's own device to its original state) but it would perhaps help a little bit.

By the way, how does it come that you initially were not happy with 4.3 but now you are?

That's good for Microsoft, and good for their customers.  Everything I hear about Windows 10 is that it's a great bit of code (from a friend who is a former MS employee, and former IBM employee).  We don't own any PC's at home (all Mac), and at work I just moved to a Mac. What IBM is doing with OS X for enterprises is pretty interesting; it's built on Unix of course, so it's quite easy to maintain.

I can't speak for others, but it's sometimes hard to separate the psychological from the aural.  We hear with our minds.  Something new comes out . . . we read reactions of others on the forum . . . we form opinions . . . and we don't like it.  Then, over time, things change.  In our minds, not in the hardware or software.

The above isn't pointed at anyone; it's just my belief as to what goes on in the "real world."

Absolutely 100% ...........  I always try to listen first for myself, given the update revisions are so close in SQ terms & because of the tendency to listen more intently with a new update it inevitably turns to some from of self doubt,  was it psychosomatic or is it for real.  Then with other opinions adding influence & the memory of the previous rev becoming quickly lost in time   ...  100% agree.

One thing I will add is in the beta group we do tend to be unanimous over the SQ changes,  then that is confirmed & signed off by Naim before release & because of this I find it a bit surprising when someone pops up with opposing comments - revert to "was it psychosomatic or is it for real".

Maybe I should have stated that going back to 4.3 would have been a retrograde step for ME but I thought that was understood. I mentioned that 4.4 got rid of a rather annoying bug that produced 1 second drops, and this version has also faciltated my ability to evaluate free of charge a higher resolution streaming service which I may well subscribe to as I am enjoying it.

Yes, for me going back to 4.3 would be plain daft! I do however understand that others might want the ability to go back but for the life of me I can't understand why you would want to in this instance.

hello you experts you!

my system sounds very good as is and i am hesitant to start messing about and compromising it.

so my question is, am i missing anything if hold off this upgrade until absolutely necessary? i am not that interested in Tidal.

enjoy

ken

What rev are you on now Ken ??

I wouldn't hesitate to go to 4.4,  if Tidal (& Spotify) don't rock your boat its simple enough to either not use them or better still switch off the application in the app so they can't be seen

Depending were you are now,  a big ticket item was DSD, 4.3 was an SQ improvement but had an annoying 1 second drop-out (sometimes) with very high res (24/192)

4.4 fixes all & IMO is the best SQ to date  

Ken, if you have not been suffering the dropouts and are not interested in Tidal then I would suggest there is no rush to update to 4.4 as I could not detect any (significant) improvement in SQ over 4.3.

I don't know however if 4.4 has removed any other bugs or vulnerabilities that might be worth the update. Maybe some of the beta testers can advise.