NDS and firmware 4.4
Posted by: jon_jh on 18 October 2015
When I updated the previous firmware to 4.3 (I think this included a DSP/DAC update for DSD), I noticed a positive effect on sound quality.
Has anyone noticed any effect on perceived sound quality when going from firmware 4.3 to 4.4?
Tidal is is a bonus, but I'm more interested in uPnP playback.
Cheers
Jon
Synology -- do not support downgrading system OS.
Apple -- do not support downgrading from El Capitan to Yosemite.
Android -- do not support downgrading from Lollipop to KitKat.
I see a pattern developing . . .
yeh but .............. Windows allow a roll-back to 7 & 8 from Win-10, it holds your previous OS for 30 days, after that you're locked in.
That is considered a bit revolutionary as it had never been done before ....
....... & as you say Bart, there is a pattern ......
Bart, Mike, I might be missing something obvious but I do not see any pattern here. What would prevent you from downgrading in either OS X, Android, Windows, Linux or other OSs?
If you had moved from, say, Yosemite to El Capitan and you would fancy to revert, you would just need to wipe out your hard disk and reinstall Yosemite. It would be perhaps annoying but certainly possible. And if you had been careful to backup your data under Yosemite before upgrading to El Capitan, you would certainly be able to recover them after having reinstalled Yosemite. Same with Linux, Windows, etc.
I am not arguing Naim should implement any fancy restore procedure of 4.3 within 4.4. But I certainly do expect 4.3 and 4.4 for a configurable device like the NDS to support, as a minimum
1. Saving the current device settings under 4.3 to USB stick
2. Installing 4.4 via USB stick, computer or other means
3. Retrieving the saved 4.3 settings from stick under 4.4
4. Saving the current device settings under 4.4 to USB stick
5. Installing 4.3 via USB stick, computer or other means
6. Retrieving the saved 4.3 settings from stick under 4.3
These are very basic, yet essential functionalities. It goes without saying that everyone is free to be happy with less. But I do not see a point in doing so. And pretending everyone ought to be happy with less seems a little bit unfair to me.
Best, nbpf
By the way, how does it come that you initially were not happy with 4.3 but now you are?
I can't speak for others, but it's sometimes hard to separate the psychological from the aural. We hear with our minds. Something new comes out . . . we read reactions of others on the forum . . . we form opinions . . . and we don't like it. Then, over time, things change. In our minds, not in the hardware or software.
The above isn't pointed at anyone; it's just my belief as to what goes on in the "real world."
Thanks Bart, all very honest and good points! Best, nbpf
Honestly, I can think of no reason why anyone would want to go back to 4.3 from 4.4, but. . . . what if 4.4 had unwittingly introduced a significant bug? Of course, we'd all want a fix, but wouldn't it be handy to revert in the meantime?
While most suppliers don't facilitate a rollback, it is usually possible to return to the original media and re-install if you choose. I can understand that it's easier for Naim to keep people current and not have the hassle, but it doesn't seem a huge ask for Naim to provide that. In fact, it's possible that they do have such a mechanism, just in case, but don't distribute it unless absolutely necessary.
On which subject, have just had to do a complete re-install to downgrade from El Cap to Yosemite, as the latest OSX doesn't play nicely with all kinds of third-party software – such as Microsoft Office 2016 – and also doesn't seem at the moment to support USB audio.
Which, as a reviewer, makes it a dead duck for me until Apple sorts it, which it seems in no hurry to do.
nigelb, why does it seem to you retrograde being able to undo a change? Do you see obvious disadvantages in being able to reverse a firmware upgrade? This is a very basic (in fact, as I argued, mandatory) functionality. It does not have whatsoever bearing on other functionalities. None does have to use it but some (a few, hopefully) can take advantage of it. If you rate the incapability of undoing changes as a value in itself, fair enough. But in this case you would probably consider welding your speaker cables to your power amp during speakers upgrade the normal upgrading procedure. I do not believe you do so, do you? Best, nbpf
Maybe I should have stated that going back to 4.3 would have been a retrograde step for ME but I thought that was understood. I mentioned that 4.4 got rid of a rather annoying bug that produced 1 second drops, and this version has also faciltated my ability to evaluate free of charge a higher resolution streaming service which I may well subscribe to as I am enjoying it.
Yes, for me going back to 4.3 would be plain daft! I do however understand that others might want the ability to go back but for the life of me I can't understand why you would want to in this instance.
Thanks nigelb, I understand and apologize for my previous post. It was probably inappropriate. I do not personally want to (or, better, can) go back to 4.3. I do not even have an NDS, just a bare DAC. But, in general, I would like to know that I am able to go one step back in whatever firmware upgrade if I wish to do so. For me this is a matter of principle, not of the specific upgrade at stack. Best, nbpf
Ken, if you have not been suffering the dropouts and are not interested in Tidal then I would suggest there is no rush to update to 4.4 as I could not detect any (significant) improvement in SQ over 4.3.
I don't know however if 4.4 has removed any other bugs or vulnerabilities that might be worth the update. Maybe some of the beta testers can advise.
4.4 has dealt with some dropout issues on hi res tracks and has introduced a number of stability improvements. Overall it Works more slickly with the latest app, so I would recommend going for it. It's hardly tricky to do and it will only make things better, and nothing worse.
Of course, if there was ever a significant bug it would be possible to roll back, but in normal day to day operation there is no need. We Beta testers have worked really hard with Naim to ensure that everything works as intended, which includes full regression testing to ensure that new functionality does not mess up the current version.
On which subject, have just had to do a complete re-install to downgrade from El Cap to Yosemite, as the latest OSX doesn't play nicely with all kinds of third-party software – such as Microsoft Office 2016 – and also doesn't seem at the moment to support USB audio.
That is very annoying but still much better than if you had been forced to stick to El Cap, I guess.
Honestly, I can think of no reason why anyone would want to go back to 4.3 from 4.4, but. . . . what if 4.4 had unwittingly introduced a significant bug? Of course, we'd all want a fix, but wouldn't it be handy to revert in the meantime?
While most suppliers don't facilitate a rollback, it is usually possible to return to the original media and re-install if you choose. I can understand that it's easier for Naim to keep people current and not have the hassle, but it doesn't seem a huge ask for Naim to provide that. In fact, it's possible that they do have such a mechanism, just in case, but don't distribute it unless absolutely necessary.
I am sure they do have a way of re-installing: everything else would simply make no sense. And it is also understandable and meaningful that Naim tries to move users to the latest firmware release. But not supporting reverting one step back is not a good way to get near to this goal and, indeed, counter productive, I believe.
Ken, if you have not been suffering the dropouts and are not interested in Tidal then I would suggest there is no rush to update to 4.4 as I could not detect any (significant) improvement in SQ over 4.3.
I don't know however if 4.4 has removed any other bugs or vulnerabilities that might be worth the update. Maybe some of the beta testers can advise.
...
Of course, if there was ever a significant bug it would be possible to roll back, but in normal day to day operation there is no need. We Beta testers have worked really hard with Naim to ensure that everything works as intended, ...
Thanks HH, I very much appreciate the work of beta testers. I very much hope that "working as intended" includes saving current settings to file, retrieving them and being able to revert from a firmware upgrade by re-installing the previous firmware. Best, nbpf
nigelb, why does it seem to you retrograde being able to undo a change? Do you see obvious disadvantages in being able to reverse a firmware upgrade? This is a very basic (in fact, as I argued, mandatory) functionality. It does not have whatsoever bearing on other functionalities. None does have to use it but some (a few, hopefully) can take advantage of it. If you rate the incapability of undoing changes as a value in itself, fair enough. But in this case you would probably consider welding your speaker cables to your power amp during speakers upgrade the normal upgrading procedure. I do not believe you do so, do you? Best, nbpf
Maybe I should have stated that going back to 4.3 would have been a retrograde step for ME but I thought that was understood. I mentioned that 4.4 got rid of a rather annoying bug that produced 1 second drops, and this version has also faciltated my ability to evaluate free of charge a higher resolution streaming service which I may well subscribe to as I am enjoying it.
Yes, for me going back to 4.3 would be plain daft! I do however understand that others might want the ability to go back but for the life of me I can't understand why you would want to in this instance.
Thanks nigelb, I understand and apologize for my previous post. It was probably inappropriate. I do not personally want to (or, better, can) go back to 4.3. I do not even have an NDS, just a bare DAC. But, in general, I would like to know that I am able to go one step back in whatever firmware upgrade if I wish to do so. For me this is a matter of principle, not of the specific upgrade at stack. Best, nbpf
No problem and I appreciate your good grace.
What rev are you on now Ken ??
I wouldn't hesitate to go to 4.4, if Tidal (& Spotify) don't rock your boat its simple enough to either not use them or better still switch off the application in the app so they can't be seen
Depending were you are now, a big ticket item was DSD, 4.3 was an SQ improvement but had an annoying 1 second drop-out (sometimes) with very high res (24/192)
4.4 fixes all & IMO is the best SQ to date
I'm on 4.3.
thanks for your advice Mike-B...
enjoy
ken
Ken, if you have not been suffering the dropouts and are not interested in Tidal then I would suggest there is no rush to update to 4.4 as I could not detect any (significant) improvement in SQ over 4.3.
I don't know however if 4.4 has removed any other bugs or vulnerabilities that might be worth the update. Maybe some of the beta testers can advise.
Nigel, many thanks...
enjoy
ken
If you had moved from, say, Yosemite to El Capitan and you would fancy to revert, you would just need to wipe out your hard disk and reinstall Yosemite. It would be perhaps annoying but certainly possible. And if you had been careful to backup your data under Yosemite before upgrading to El Capitan, you would certainly be able to recover them after having reinstalled Yosemite. Same with Linux, Windows, etc.
On a Mac, yes, you'd have to "wipe out" your installation of El Capitan and install Yosemite from scratch. To do that, either you'd need install discs (which Apple havent been providing for some years now as the typical owner doesn't need them) or to go to an Apple store and get them to do it. It's not impossible, but it's not supported, meaning it takes somewhat extraordinary means.
As I have suggested on another thread, it would be nice if Naim would share updates' specifications including for audio parametring and SQ.
In other terms open the door to modular updates or à la carte. 
Chag -
Any update which writes a different DAC DSP routine to the FW (as I believe most do) has a potential to change the sonics. Past that it's totally subjective. I have been told categorically that a change in sound that I have detected with my ears is impossible. Or that something that sounds the same to me is different. Or that something I don't like is better. And so on. You can never make a prediction based on somebody else's ears.
I have one of the first NDS units built at launch and I've been through all the FWs since day 1. The first NDS FW lasted less than a month and according to my ears, the second FW version changed the presentation into something I liked less. Two things worth pointing out are: we are talking degrees of aspects here, you'll get a hint of this and a wisp of that - assuming you hear anything. Second thing is that the NDS is simply beautiful of voice and apart from occasionally tweaking with it to some minor degree, Naim will never crap all over something so good and phrased in such a particular way.
For my money the best sounding FW in the NDS is a dead heat between the current one and the first one ever. FW versions which I have liked less have never appalled me, just sounded different. Most FW updates I haven't heard a difference or have got used to it fast and forgotten about it.
I seem to remember rolling back once (might be mistaken). A check with Naim and a roll back, if desperately required, is not out of the question in all instances, I believe. But ask Naim.
On a Mac, yes, you'd have to "wipe out" your installation of El Capitan and install Yosemite from scratch. To do that, either you'd need install discs (which Apple havent been providing for some years now as the typical owner doesn't need them) or to go to an Apple store and get them to do it. It's not impossible, but it's not supported, meaning it takes somewhat extraordinary means.
Not really: you can just download the appropriate OSX installer and make a bootable USB from it, using a utility such as Discmaker X, or a spot of jiggery (and indeed pokery) in Terminal: then it's just a case of starting the computer from that stick, using the supplied disc utility to erase the hard disk carrying the El Cap install, and then re-installing the 'old' OS on the computer.
Provided you have a back-up of the computer from before the EL Cap installation – which one should always do before any OS 'upgrade' – and copies of any files created since the installation, it's more a lengthy process than a hard one.
On a Mac, yes, you'd have to "wipe out" your installation of El Capitan and install Yosemite from scratch. To do that, either you'd need install discs (which Apple havent been providing for some years now as the typical owner doesn't need them) or to go to an Apple store and get them to do it. It's not impossible, but it's not supported, meaning it takes somewhat extraordinary means.
Not really: you can just download the appropriate OSX installer and make a bootable USB from it, using a utility such as Discmaker X, or a spot of jiggery (and indeed pokery) in Terminal: then it's just a case of starting the computer from that stick, using the supplied disc utility to erase the hard disk carrying the El Cap install, and then re-installing the 'old' OS on the computer.
Provided you have a back-up of the computer from before the EL Cap installation – which one should always do before any OS 'upgrade' – and copies of any files created since the installation, it's more a lengthy process than a hard one.
Like I said . . not supported by Apple, but not impossible.
Like I said . . not supported by Apple, but not impossible.
Taken from a thread on Apple's own developer support forum.
As I have suggested on another thread, it would be nice if Naim would share updates' specifications including for audio parametring and SQ.
In other terms open the door to modular updates or à la carte.
Chag -
That would be nice but the very first step is to get the basics right: can you save your current NDS settings to a file? Can you load a set of settings from a previously saved file? Why not? First get the 1x1 right. Then move to higher math. Or maybe not. Firmware upgrades should be simple and safe. We are not yet there, it appears. Best, nbpf
my system sounds very good as is and i am hesitant to start messing about and compromising it.
I'm in the same boat, and hence my reluctance to make an essentially irreversible change by updating to 4.4. For me 4.3 was a big step forwards from the previous version and my system is nicely balanced just now. Given that SQ is subjective and influenced by so may other variables, the option change back to the previous firmware does seem desirable, whether or not it would be easy to implement technically.
On the other hand, general consensus on this thread seems to be that 4.4 at least equals 4.3 in SQ terms. Time to carry on enjoying the music then...
As I have suggested on another thread, it would be nice if Naim would share updates' specifications including for audio parametring and SQ.
In other terms open the door to modular updates or à la carte.
Chag -
That would be nice but the very first step is to get the basics right: can you save your current NDS settings to a file? Can you load a set of settings from a previously saved file? Why not? First get the 1x1 right. Then move to higher math. Or maybe not. Firmware upgrades should be simple and safe. We are not yet there, it appears. Best, nbpf
Naim don't support any of that, and if you asked them, I suspect that the answer is that they don't want to support it. They add features / fix bugs / make "improvements" (always in the ears of the beholder) etc., and roll out updates. The customer can update, or not. There are only so many versions of software that any given customer may be running, and this makes tech support somewhat simplified.
I suspect that they do not want to support a myriad of things that a customer MAY do with the software in the unit, only to have to provide support when the customer is dissatisfied, etc., by first figuring out which DSP firmware, which streamer firmware, etc etc the given customer is running on the given unit. They COULD support this, but I assume they don't want so many variables, and having to test each combination and permutation of features that any one user might want, eg, "I want last years DSP but with Tidal, and with 192 kbps support, blah blah blah"
Nothing more to be said !!!
Like I said . . not supported by Apple, but not impossible.
Taken from a thread on Apple's own developer support forum.
Right...which is not a forum for everyday blokes like me -- a mere customer not a developer.
Right...which is not a forum for everyday blokes like me -- a mere customer not a developer.
You know how to Google, don't you Steve? You just put your browser together and click... 
Nothing more to be said !!!
If 4.4 does at least equal 4.3 in SQ terms and is not inferior to 4.3 in any other respect (according to subjective preferences, of course) and the upgrade process is safe, I think it would be fair for users to honour the work of Naim + beta testers and upgrade to the new firmware. This would also realize a better basis for future upgrades. Just my two cents. Best, nbpf