Tidal keeps stopping on the NDS

Posted by: Laxton Yeo on 18 October 2015

I've just upgraded to the latest firmware 4.4 for The NDS. Tidal works fine but 50% of the time, it would play a song for about 30 seconds and stops playing. Pressing play plays the song from the start which is very irritating.

My internet connection is a dedicated fiber line in Singapore with 500mbps bandwidth. I'm using a direct cat6 cable to the router. My uPNP works fine. The issue happens less often when I select high quality instead of Hifi for Tidal streaming .

I've tried streaming the same songs over wifi on a iPad with quality set as Hifi and adaptive streaming turned off. Hifi quality plays back without issues on the iPad.

I have written to Naim and the reply I got was it is due to bandwidth issues. This isn't too convincing as Hifi streams fine on the iPad.

Has anyone experienced any similar issues on their streamer?
Posted on: 18 October 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Only where I have experienced bandwidth issues! typically at the Tidal end. A sniff of the network traffic indeed shows this.. You can see where the Tidal server/internet access is very congested there is increased delay of the network windowing confirmation, and even lost data. 

A good personal internet connection should mask most of this, but clearly not for what ever reason in your case. I have found setting the Naim streamer to have the highest QoS setting on the broadband router has helped in more modest Internet access setups ... That being the TCP Tidal web streaming is given top timing priority over other applications sharing your internet access.

Simon

Posted on: 18 October 2015 by Mohamed Amin
you are not alone , I have the same issue with Uniti2 and Tidal keep stoping and then start streaming again after few seconds , this is happening less often than in your case and seems to be random in my case. I have 240 Mb internet and have never ever encountered this issue with Qobuz over the last 2 years. It seems Tidal needs to work heavely on their streaming end
 
 
Originally Posted by Laxton Yeo:
I've just upgraded to the latest firmware 4.4 for The NDS. Tidal works fine but 50% of the time, it would play a song for about 30 seconds and stops playing. Pressing play plays the song from the start which is very irritating.

My internet connection is a dedicated fiber line in Singapore with 500mbps bandwidth. I'm using a direct cat6 cable to the router. My uPNP works fine. The issue happens less often when I select high quality instead of Hifi for Tidal streaming .

I've tried streaming the same songs over wifi on a iPad with quality set as Hifi and adaptive streaming turned off. Hifi quality plays back without issues on the iPad.

I have written to Naim and the reply I got was it is due to bandwidth issues. This isn't too convincing as Hifi streams fine on the iPad.

Has anyone experienced any similar issues on their streamer?

 

Posted on: 18 October 2015 by Laxton Yeo
Hi Simon,

Thanks for your reply. In your experience, is there anything that can be done on the streamer side to mitigate this issue? I also noticed that it may be a Tidal issue as it happens on some songs more than others.
Posted on: 18 October 2015 by Laxton Yeo
Hi Amin,

Agreed. If it's a Tidal issue, I hope they do something about it soon if they want to remain viable in the long term.
Posted on: 19 October 2015 by DC71

Hi Laxton,

 

I'm also in Singapore, and have been using Tidal heavily for almost a week now, using MyRepublic 1Gb fibre then wired from a gigabit home router through an unmanaged Gbit switch to a unitiqute 2.

 

I have experienced only a couple of dropouts so far which resumed after 3-4 seconds so your issue is puzzling - 500Mbps should be fine for hi-res streaming. 

 

Is your router all Gbit connections for the wired ports? If not, an upgraded model may be helpful.

 

Then try Simon's suggestion of setting up your router to give the highest priority to the IP of the Naim streamer. 

 

Was your streaming to ipad done over wifi? If so it's very strange that this gave better results than wired, but maybe you could try NDS over the wifi to compare apples to apples. As a techie I have some experience setting up home and office networks, so I'm happy to try to help locally if I can.

 

It may be that Tidal are not using the best providers/locations for their file hosting. I would encourage you to report the issue to Tidal support and let them know which ISP you're using. If they see enough of these tickets then hopefully they will liaise with local ISP's and their own hosting providers to optimise the service in all countries.

 

Dylan

Posted on: 19 October 2015 by MarcelZ
Originally Posted by Laxton Yeo:
I've just upgraded to the latest firmware 4.4 for The NDS. Tidal works fine but 50% of the time, it would play a song for about 30 seconds and stops playing. Pressing play plays the song from the start which is very irritating.

My internet connection is a dedicated fiber line in Singapore with 500mbps bandwidth. I'm using a direct cat6 cable to the router. My uPNP works fine. The issue happens less often when I select high quality instead of Hifi for Tidal streaming .

I've tried streaming the same songs over wifi on a iPad with quality set as Hifi and adaptive streaming turned off. Hifi quality plays back without issues on the iPad.

I have written to Naim and the reply I got was it is due to bandwidth issues. This isn't too convincing as Hifi streams fine on the iPad.

Has anyone experienced any similar issues on their streamer?

Same problem with my Unitiqute 2 here in the Netherlands.

Sometimes it works good, other times its no fun to listen music.

i am on glasfiber 250 mbit/s

I am not sure if i stay to Tidal if they dont fix this

Posted on: 19 October 2015 by Hmack

Hi,

i think the response from Naim that your problems are due Tuesday bandwidth issues is very strange given your fibre connection Which is something I could only dream of at my location. I have been using Tidal via a Linn streamer over a 3.6 mb connection for alost a couple of weeks without a single buffering problem. 

 

Using my Naim ND5XS, I experienced Horrendous buffering problems initially, but those cleared up (for no apparent reason that I could find), and I am now getting an OK service via my Nam streamer albeit with with just the odd little glitch now and again.

 

are Naim suggesting that theproblem is with your Internet bandwidth ,or a problem with the Tidal servers that service your region?

Posted on: 19 October 2015 by Jack

Hi Laxton,

 

I'm also having buffering issues but I don't have anywhere near the bandwidth you have in Singapore. Your comments about streaming to iPad are interesting. Was this streaming done at the same time you were experiencing buffering issues on Naim and with the same track?

Posted on: 19 October 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I think many of the problems are with Tidal and it exacerbated with the characteristics of your connection.

When Tidal is bad there also issues with the Tidal app.

As said setting the QoS for the Naim streamer to be the highest priority can help if you are have other apps / users sharing your bandwidth, but this can't eliminate the Tidal issues their end, it just helps your Naim try and recover the best way it can before its buffer exhausts.

Its also bearing in mind it's not all about your bandwidth per se, but also the round trip delay or latency between your streamer/ISP and the Tidal servers. If this becomes too long, the streamer gives up and asks for the data again.

 

Simon

 

Posted on: 19 October 2015 by Jack

Makes sense if the the native tidal app behaves badly when Tidal on Naim performs badly. But if the native Tidal app works fine on iPad at same time Tidal on Naim is performing badly then it doesn't seem to quite add up? Am I missing something?

 

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Laxton
Hi Dylan,
 
Thanks for your reply.
 
I am currently using Singnet 500 Mbps fiber plan with the router that they provided. I am unable to change out the router as it's the only approved router for that plan it seems. My home network is all Gigabit and i have no issues when streaming uncompress FLAC in Hires 192/24 in Upnp so i guess my internal bandwidth should be sufficient. I've explored the router admin options last night and i have tried turning on IGMP snooping in standard mode. QoS is already turned on in the settings. I haven't had the chance to test it yet but i'll do so tonight to see if the same issue occur.
 
I'm a little apprehensive about using the NDS over Wifi as the Wifi may not have enough bandwidth when i'm playing back 192/24 uncompressed material.
 
Laxton
 
Originally Posted by DC71:

Hi Laxton,

 

I'm also in Singapore, and have been using Tidal heavily for almost a week now, using MyRepublic 1Gb fibre then wired from a gigabit home router through an unmanaged Gbit switch to a unitiqute 2.

 

I have experienced only a couple of dropouts so far which resumed after 3-4 seconds so your issue is puzzling - 500Mbps should be fine for hi-res streaming. 

 

Is your router all Gbit connections for the wired ports? If not, an upgraded model may be helpful.

 

Then try Simon's suggestion of setting up your router to give the highest priority to the IP of the Naim streamer. 

 

Was your streaming to ipad done over wifi? If so it's very strange that this gave better results than wired, but maybe you could try NDS over the wifi to compare apples to apples. As a techie I have some experience setting up home and office networks, so I'm happy to try to help locally if I can.

 

It may be that Tidal are not using the best providers/locations for their file hosting. I would encourage you to report the issue to Tidal support and let them know which ISP you're using. If they see enough of these tickets then hopefully they will liaise with local ISP's and their own hosting providers to optimise the service in all countries.

 

Dylan

 

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Laxton
Hi Hmack,
 
Naim was suggesting that this may be an internet bandwidth issue which I am not truly convinced.
 
Laxton
 
Originally Posted by Hmack:

Hi,

i think the response from Naim that your problems are due Tuesday bandwidth issues is very strange given your fibre connection Which is something I could only dream of at my location. I have been using Tidal via a Linn streamer over a 3.6 mb connection for alost a couple of weeks without a single buffering problem. 

 

Using my Naim ND5XS, I experienced Horrendous buffering problems initially, but those cleared up (for no apparent reason that I could find), and I am now getting an OK service via my Nam streamer albeit with with just the odd little glitch now and again.

 

are Naim suggesting that theproblem is with your Internet bandwidth ,or a problem with the Tidal servers that service your region?

 

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Laxton
Hi Jack,
 
Yes the streaming test on the iPad was done on the same tracks. It's really quite strange that it works fine in the Tidal app and in the Naim app, it stops after about 30 seconds on some occasions.
 
Laxton
 
Originally Posted by Jack:

Hi Laxton,

 

I'm also having buffering issues but I don't have anywhere near the bandwidth you have in Singapore. Your comments about streaming to iPad are interesting. Was this streaming done at the same time you were experiencing buffering issues on Naim and with the same track?

 

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Laxton
Hi Simon,
 
Should the QoS be set on the NDS or the router? I've checked on my router and it has QoS enabled. I don't see any QoS settings on the NDS though.
 
Laxton
 
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

I think many of the problems are with Tidal and it exacerbated with the characteristics of your connection.

When Tidal is bad there also issues with the Tidal app.

As said setting the QoS for the Naim streamer to be the highest priority can help if you are have other apps / users sharing your bandwidth, but this can't eliminate the Tidal issues their end, it just helps your Naim try and recover the best way it can before its buffer exhausts.

Its also bearing in mind it's not all about your bandwidth per se, but also the round trip delay or latency between your streamer/ISP and the Tidal servers. If this becomes too long, the streamer gives up and asks for the data again.

 

Simon

 

 

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by DC71

Hi Laxton,

Setting QoS priority would be done on the router, but let me know what make/model it is, and can you check the IP address assigned to the NDS? I can then check the steps you could take which might improve this

 

Dylan

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Laxton Yeo
Hi Dylan,

I've accessed the Qos page and there is an option called Select Default DSCP Mark and Default is selected at the moment. Should I change this to something else?

Thanks.

Laxton
Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Jack
Doesn't sound like an Internet bandwidth problem to me or an issue in the hosting provider (AWS) if the native Tidal app works perfectly well at the same time. Might be worth just giving the wireless on the NDS a try to see if you experience the same problem and narrow down the issue.
Hi Jack,
 
Yes the streaming test on the iPad was done on the same tracks. It's really quite strange that it works fine in the Tidal app and in the Naim app, it stops after about 30 seconds on some occasions.
 
Laxton
 
Originally Posted by Jack:

Hi Laxton,

 

I'm also having buffering issues but I don't have anywhere near the bandwidth you have in Singapore. Your comments about streaming to iPad are interesting. Was this streaming done at the same time you were experiencing buffering issues on Naim and with the same track?

 

 

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Hi Laxton, yes the QoS to the Internet  is set on the router. Set the NDS to the highest setting. This will only affect upstream traffic but will allow the TCP acks to go back to Tidal as quickly as possible, helping the streamer recover if Tidal is congested.
It's worth noting that the Tidal iPad app downloads the media into discrete files, so can insulate itself better than a real time streamer.from server glitches.
Simon
Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Jack

Simon....would bigger buffers in the streamer fix this problem do you think?

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Jack, no doubt, but the aim internal architecture has a maximum size which has been optimised ..therefore the ability to compensate for errant service providers is limited.

Posted on: 20 October 2015 by Laxton

I'm using the Aztech FG7003 router provided by my ISP that I cannot change.

 

I don't really see any option in the QoS page to enable me to configure QoS by IP address. There is a section where I can configure it by port though.

Posted on: 21 October 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Laxton, ok that might not be very helpful then.

 

The actual service to focus on is WebStreaming - and it is this for the NDS that needs to be optimised. The port is usually port 80 for web streaming - but this is also used for web surfing and HTTP traffic..

 

Simon

Posted on: 21 October 2015 by DC71

Hi Laxton,

Try googling Aztech FG7003 and you can find the thread on Hardwarezone which tells you how to get into the advanced router config, if you haven't already accessed that. The specs for that router say that QoS priority is supported, so the advanced config should show you more options for this.

 

Somebody here wrote that Tidal use AWS for hosting. If this is the case, there should not be any streaming issue over fibre in Singapore. But my experience of Singtel internet services is that the service is only really good to sites hosted in their own datacentres/infra.

 

I would recommend logging a support call with Singtel, as it is possible for them to check and optimise routes for both your connection and for Tidal's streaming. 500Mbps is plenty fast enough for streaming, so don't accept it if they say you need to upgrade. Also logging a call with Tidal, explaining the situation and that you will not continue after the free trial unless it works reliably, should get them moving to contact Singtel in order to optimise from their side. I know it's a pain, but these things can be resolved by the providers.

 

Dylan

Posted on: 21 October 2015 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Don't confuse AWS hosting with lack of congestion for the Tidal servers.. The two really need have no direct correlation. If you sniff the network data, you will, if like in the UK, see the public internet route to the Tidal servers is quick. However the congestion appears to be server access or server capacity related. Of course it will vary per track, as each track is typically spooled to a different server/IP address combination. So you you may get a stuttering track, you forward to the next track and all is ok.

Simon

 

Posted on: 23 October 2015 by nigelb

Have been using Tidal with my NDS for several days now and am enjoying this new source of music.

 

Today however I have experienced my first problems. Tidal kept stopping mid track for a few seconds. The time between, and duration of, silences varied. Fast forwarding to the next track did not fix the problem. The same stutters on all tracks. I checked the same album on Spotify and no problems so it is a Tidal (or Tidal server) problem. This did however confirm the (far) superioir quality of Tidal. Unlistenable however.

 

What a shame it was all going so well. Anyone else in UK having similar problems?